why middle earth - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

feonor · 09-26-2005, 04:48 PM

but in the beginning of the time there was no valinor in the middle earth.

Rune Son of Bjarne · 09-26-2005, 06:08 PM

Maybe it is simpley something he has taken from Nordic Mythology.

where there is Asgård (The home of the gods) Midgård (Middle Earth, The home of men) and Jotunheim (Home of the giants)

So maybe he just transfered a name for the world in witch men lived.

Besides i do think that this name for world of men, is the same in ancient english so it
makes perfect sense.

(It would not be the first time Tolkien took a name from Nordic Mythology. eks. Gandalf was the name of a dwarf in a tale)

Gothmog · 09-27-2005, 05:05 AM

Tolkiens great interest in Nordic Mythology is a fact and as Rune said, Middle Earth is a direct translation of Midgård.

"Gandalf the dwarf" was a character is the Icelandic (sp?) tale Snorres Edda if I'm not mistaken.

You could see this as copying others work, but I prefer the look at it as a way of connecting his work with old mythologies and create a foundation for a new mythology =) Many of the early texts he wrote is based on old celtic myths which through the years have been rewritten and edited to his own world (the notes in BoLT give hints of these connections to ancient english history).

All I wanted to say is that I agree with Rune Son of Bjarne

thanks for your time...

yavanna II · 11-10-2005, 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

where there is Asgård (The home of the gods) Midgård (Middle Earth, The home of men) and Jotunheim (Home of the giants)

So maybe he just transfered a name for the world in witch men lived.

Hehe.. always thought ME was the world for the "dominion of men" thing, and Aman the place of the immortals...

Really, I agree with feonor that Tolkien never used useless words, so he used "middle" as the sorta border twixt the holies [the Ainur and Co.] and the villains [Melkor Morgoth and Co.]...

hehe...

~~~

Bêthberry · 11-10-2005, 08:16 AM

Middle-earth is also a word found in several Old English poems, which, if you know your Middle-earth well, you will know that Tolkien knew a thing or two about.

Rune Son of Bjarne · 11-10-2005, 12:44 PM

In old norse Midgår is l lying in the middle of the world. (I forgot to mention earlyier)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Middle-earth is also a word found in several Old English poems, which, if you know your Middle-earth well, you will know that Tolkien knew a thing or two about.

Of course you will find it used there, as a lot of words from the Scandinavian languages are the same as the old english. You remember there was great "culturel" exchange between England and Scandinavia back in the day's.

one of many exampels of words who are very much alike:

Attercop = Edderkop (spider in danish)

you will allso find simalaritys in the life of Turin and Sigmund Fafnersbane (Vølsung sagaen, it is practicualy a total re-writing)

the horse that brought the day was named Skinfaxe and the one that brought the night was Rimfaxe (

just some random things i could think of.

Thinlómien · 11-10-2005, 12:56 PM

Quote:

you will allso find simalaritys in the life of Turin and Sigmund Fafnersbane (Vølsung sagaen, it is practicualy a total re-writing)

I, as a finn, have to point out also the significant similarities between the life of Turin and the story of Kullervo in Kalevala. I just wondered, is it coincidence that the story of Kullervo and Sigmund Fafnersbane are so similar? Finns and (other) nordic people have been interacting for such a long time, that legends and stories are (probably) spread by word of mouth.

Gothmog · 11-10-2005, 02:02 PM

Probably there's a lot of stories which are almost the same through out the scandinavian countries. We must remember that the boundaries of today was settled relative late. Finland belonged to Sweden until 1800- something, right Thin? And Denmark and Sweden has swapped parts of south Sweden(Skåne to me) a long time. And Norway has belonged to both Sweden and Denmark and so on... And even earlier there were no kingdoms. The separate areas were governed by some local chief.

But this does not stay in the nordic countries. The vikings raids through Europe left traces. For example are the scottish clans half irish, half vikings roughly expressed. When traveling in Scotland you recognize a lot of the old place names (for example I heard of a place called Kallwik or something like that and Kallvik=Cold Bay). Of course the myths, stories and language spread with the people.

What's interesting is the extent of the similarities between old English and for example old Swedish. If a swede reads a text in old english nowadays, he would understand a lot of words and probably the context. This is at least according to my father who has studied English and always been fond of both Celtic languages and Old English.

Unfortunately I don't know enough about the old legends and stories to comment on them separatly. But I do know that Mr T found much inspiration in these. As mentioned earlier: Gandalf, Shadowfax, maybe Turin. Probably the dwarfes as they're not unusual to find in the stories, and Middle Earth. And there's sure to be more of these things if we dig a little.

I just noticed that I made a slight mistake in my previous post here. Midgård is actually translated Middle Yard/Court but can be equaled with Middle Earth. That's the meaning of it.

But for more discussions about the Tolkien-Nordic connection we might nead an other thread. It would be really interesting to hear more about Kullervo-Turin-Sigmund Fafnersbane. But for now, that's all...

09-26-2005, 04:48 PM	#1
feonor Pile O'Bones Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Eriador Posts: 11	but in the beginning of the time there was no valinor in the middle earth. __________________ There was Eru, the One, who in Arda is called Iluvatar; and he made first the Ainur, the Holy Ones, that were the offspring of his thought, and they were with him before aught else was made.

09-27-2005, 05:05 AM	#3
Gothmog Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Where I lay my head is home Posts: 421	Tolkiens great interest in Nordic Mythology is a fact and as Rune said, Middle Earth is a direct translation of Midgård. "Gandalf the dwarf" was a character is the Icelandic (sp?) tale Snorres Edda if I'm not mistaken. You could see this as copying others work, but I prefer the look at it as a way of connecting his work with old mythologies and create a foundation for a new mythology =) Many of the early texts he wrote is based on old celtic myths which through the years have been rewritten and edited to his own world (the notes in BoLT give hints of these connections to ancient english history). All I wanted to say is that I agree with Rune Son of Bjarne thanks for your time... __________________ Three switched witches watch three Swatch watch switches. Which switched witch watch which Swatch watch switch? He who breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom ~Lurker...

11-10-2005, 08:16 AM	#5
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 6,003	Middle-earth is also a word found in several Old English poems, which, if you know your Middle-earth well, you will know that Tolkien knew a thing or two about. __________________ I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.

11-10-2005, 02:02 PM	#8
Gothmog Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Where I lay my head is home Posts: 421	Probably there's a lot of stories which are almost the same through out the scandinavian countries. We must remember that the boundaries of today was settled relative late. Finland belonged to Sweden until 1800- something, right Thin? And Denmark and Sweden has swapped parts of south Sweden(Skåne to me) a long time. And Norway has belonged to both Sweden and Denmark and so on... And even earlier there were no kingdoms. The separate areas were governed by some local chief. But this does not stay in the nordic countries. The vikings raids through Europe left traces. For example are the scottish clans half irish, half vikings roughly expressed. When traveling in Scotland you recognize a lot of the old place names (for example I heard of a place called Kallwik or something like that and Kallvik=Cold Bay). Of course the myths, stories and language spread with the people. What's interesting is the extent of the similarities between old English and for example old Swedish. If a swede reads a text in old english nowadays, he would understand a lot of words and probably the context. This is at least according to my father who has studied English and always been fond of both Celtic languages and Old English. Unfortunately I don't know enough about the old legends and stories to comment on them separatly. But I do know that Mr T found much inspiration in these. As mentioned earlier: Gandalf, Shadowfax, maybe Turin. Probably the dwarfes as they're not unusual to find in the stories, and Middle Earth. And there's sure to be more of these things if we dig a little. I just noticed that I made a slight mistake in my previous post here. Midgård is actually translated Middle Yard/Court but can be equaled with Middle Earth. That's the meaning of it. But for more discussions about the Tolkien-Nordic connection we might nead an other thread. It would be really interesting to hear more about Kullervo-Turin-Sigmund Fafnersbane. But for now, that's all... __________________ Three switched witches watch three Swatch watch switches. Which switched witch watch which Swatch watch switch? He who breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom ~Lurker...