Curses!

[mormegil]

Put in those terms I do not believe that they would be comparable. They are too different in nature. I spoke of this briefly on the unorthodox hero thread but will do so here too in hopes of clarifying my ideas.

The curse of the Valar came upon the Noldor, specifically Feanor and all those who followed him, because of their actions. It seems more or less a cause and effect senario. Because of the oath sworn and their actions taken they brought upon themselves that doom or curse. It seems that they were able to have good actions that didn't turn to evil, as you stated and yet when people tied themselves in they brought upon themselves the same doom. However, "bringing yourself in" is not merely having some role in the Silmarils fate, I give Beren as an example. He was not under the curse as Thingol became. I think it was because of his intent and desire.

The curse of Morgoth upon Hurin and his kin is entirely different in that it is localized to one small group and is given evilly, not justly as was the curse of the Valar. Turin received this curse by no action of his own. Therefore it was not justly given and any ill result of his actions, if well intended, could not be held against him.

If we are talking sheer scope the 'curse' of the valar would be more powerful in that it covered hundreds of years and many people. Also, the 'curse' came from the Valar and essentially from Eru but was given in justice due to their actions so Eru is more powerful than Morgoth.

[Formendacil]

Perhaps the Noldor brought it upon themselves... but does that make the POWER of the Doom any less powerful? Just because Turin did nothing to deserve it, the curse of Morgoth led him to have all his acts lead ultimately to ruin- the same as the Doom of the Noldor did to the acts of that people.

[mormegil]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Perhaps the Noldor brought it upon themselves... but does that make the POWER of the Doom any less powerful? Just because Turin did nothing to deserve it, the curse of Morgoth led him to have all his acts lead ultimately to ruin- the same as the Doom of the Noldor did to the acts of that people.

I would say that depends upon how you look at it. The simple fact that Morgoth could curse Hurin and his family, through no fault of theirs, shows the extreme power of this curse. And with the curse of the Noldor, since it was brought upon them by their actions, doesn't seem as powerful but it was handed down essentially by Eru, therefore powerful in that regard.

So in other words the reason I would say that the curse of Hurin is more powerful is that it came because independent of anything he did to deserve such a curse. I would say the curse of the Valar is more powerful because of the sheer scope of who it covered and applied to. The problem I have in comparing them is how different they are it seems like you're comparing apples to oranges.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by mormegil

The problem I have in comparing them is how different they are it seems like you're comparing apples to oranges.

"To curses other curses no doubt appear different. Or to cursemakers."

I do not know that they are so different. They are essentially the same in what they doom, that those cursed will find all their actions turned to naught.

It is not perhaps more a comparison between a Golden Delicious and a crabapple?

[The Perky Ent]

Grey Area! Grey Area! Well...how do you define power? Clearly, curses hold much power in Arda. From the curse of the Noldor, to the curse of Morgoth, even to the curse Isildur places upon the dead men under the mountain. One man (granted he's a decentant of Elros and of royal numenorian descent) placing a curse on a group of people, granting them an immortality until they fufil their oath. That seems like a powerful one as well! Morgoth's curse upon Hurin clearly is the more tragic. I don't think any of us say "Wow! I wish I could have been Turin! His life was fun!" The fact that the curse of Melkor rules the entire lives of the children of Hurin is rather interesting. I'm still getting more and more intrigued by Isildur's curse. One man casting a curse more powerful (well, that's what this thread is about, isn't it?) than that of the valar. The valar's curse works on a more massive scale, and if you measure power in that sense, the answer would be the valar's curse. Making many suffer for that which they may not have deserved (not counting the dead). I'm not really sure what to say, because A) I'm not that familiar with the curse of the valar, and cannot find my copy of the sil, and B) Because I'm not sure how to measure power. Because of my lack of knowlege, I'll side with the Valar's curse on the Noldor. It's on a more widespread scale, and the wrath is spread more rashly



3000th post! Wowzers!

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by The Perky Ent

Grey Area! Grey Area! Well...how do you define power? Clearly, curses hold much power in Arda. From the curse of the Noldor, to the curse of Morgoth, even to the curse Isildur places upon the dead men under the mountain.

Oooh!!

Isildur's curse... Now that IS an interesting thing to add to the mix. How does the curse of a mortal man (Numenorean but still mortal) compare? It seems, if possible, even more binding than that of Morgoth or Mandos.

The curse of Morgoth, at least, was broken by death. Nienor and Turin both died, and so were freed. The Doom of the Noldor was breakable by death, and rebirth in Valinor...

But the Curse of Isildur?

The Curse of Isildur held its victims after death, until it had what it wanted.

[Gurthang]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

The curse of Morgoth, at least, was broken by death. Nienor and Turin both died, and so were freed. The Doom of the Noldor was breakable by death, and rebirth in Valinor...

But the Curse of Isildur?

The Curse of Isildur held its victims after death, until it had what it wanted.

Yes, I've been wondering about that, too. But the thing I'm wondering is what ability did Isildur have to make such a curse? I mean, certainly he can say anything he wants about then never resting, but what actually makes his curse hold? Surely it was something that did not go with all Men, or else we'd have a lot more curses. Was it some power he possessed by himself? Or was it just that the Valar, or Eru, thought his curse was valid enough to put into fact?