Ulmo and Aulë: Lazy, Busy, or Unaware

[Legolas]

This will be brief for now, but I've always thought that Ulmo simply wouldn't want to retrieve it. Why would he? Of the Valar, he was the most directly involved and informed, as well as seemingly the most apt (and vocal) in perceiving impending doom, especially as it related to the happenings in Beleriand.

[Mithalwen]

I think also they would think that they are best out of reach even with Feanor and his son's dead or as good as. The one that they do get under their control they set in the sky. What would they do with the others that would have the same symbolism? Three Silmaril stars reduces rather than increases the impact.

I think there is a lot of symbolism - The Silmarils are the antitype of the Three Elven rings. The Silmarils are the product of the greatest craftsmen, are withheld from the common good, are seized by the evil being that desires them and the result is much destruction and suffering. They are in essence trapped fire and finish up distributed among the other three elements - earth, water and air.

The three rings in origin come from the earth and represent and have particular influence over each of the three other elements. By bestowing them on peopel who wil use them forthe common good they are saved from the evil power who desires them and help to preserve the realm of Lorien, the refuge of Imladris and aid Gandalf in his work.

[Glirdan]

My belief is that, for the Silmaril that was cast into the water, Ulmo might have taken it. Might being the key word. He might have been comanded to not retrieve it as some believe, which is probably likely.

As for the one cast into the earth, Aulë would have had to go under water and then use his power there to cast open the fissure in which Maehdros cast himself in. That might all have seemed to much work to Aulë. In which case he is landed in the category of lazy.

So it might have been a mixture of of the first two possibilities. It's highly unlikely that they didn't know the fate of the other two Silmarils, especially the one of water because that's where Ulmo rules and knows (or should know) what goes on. And if he didn't know right away, he would have found out from Ossë.

[Galadriel55]

The Valar are not lazy. They made mistakes. They acted wrongly and at the wrong times. Say whatever you want, bt they are NOT lazy.

Coming back to the topic. I think that even if one of the Valar came upon a Silmaril accidentally, they wouldn't take it. They've learned how much damage greed/lust over such things can cause. They didn't want to repeat 1st age all over again, destroying the rest of ME in the process.

The Silmarils are simply too powerful. As Melian said about something else, "the heart of the maker still lives in [them]". They flame up the world as soon as they are touched. In a way, they control the fate of Arda. I'm not sure how much of a stress this is, but in another way they are like three One Rings: having some will of their own. Maybe they just didn't want to be found?

[Findegil]

Lazzy? I think they do know exactly were these Silmarilis are and protect them from being found.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[oddkins]

Originally Posted by Gurthang

But it could also be that the Valar no longer had use for the Silmarils. The Two Trees had been dead for 10,000(?) years. I think that in the Silmarillion it says that if the Silmarils had been brought back quick enough, the Trees could have been saved. With so much time passed, the Trees were likely dead beyond recalling. And since the Trees could not be brought back using the Silmarils, the Valar had no more need of them.

Quite possibly, but it all seems to be tied into prophecy:

Mandos foretold that the fates of Arda, earth, sea and air, lay locked within them, when Feanor brought them before Varda to be hallowed, (SIL Chap 7.) and this was borne out in the event...

"And thus it came to pass that the Silmarils found their long homes: one in the airs of heaven, and one in the fires of the heart of the world, and one in the deep waters." SIL Chap 24.

After the War of Wrath the Vanyar and many of the exiled Noldor returned to Valinor in triumph, but their joy in victory was diminished for they knew that "those jewels could not be found or brought together unless the world be broken and remade."

However, the Valar will be able to make use of the Silmarils at the End of Days to help Heal Arda, for in Mandos' Second prophecy, regarding the Last Battle, following Melkor's final return and defeat in the Dagor Dagorath the world will be changed and the Silmarils will be recovered by the Valar. Then Fëanor will be released from the Halls of Mandos and give Yavanna the Silmarils and she will break them and with their light she will revive the Two Trees, the Pelóri Mountains will be flattened and the light of the Two Trees will fill the world in eternal bliss.

[Galadriel55]

... And Mandos foretold that the fates of Arda, earth, sea, and air, lay locked within them [the Silmarili].

~The Sil

It would be too dangerous to stir such a power again.

[Galadriel]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

The Valar are not lazy. They made mistakes. They acted wrongly and at the wrong times. Say whatever you want, bt they are NOT lazy.

Well, they could have certainly worked harder, considering they are both gods and rulers.

Coming back to the topic. I think that even if one of the Valar came upon a Silmaril accidentally, they wouldn't take it. They've learned how much damage greed/lust over such things can cause. They didn't want to repeat 1st age all over again, destroying the rest of ME in the process.

I'm not too sure about that. After all, if they did not want anything to do with the Silmarils, they would not have let Eärendil come to Valinor and bind one upon his brow. And the First Age, sad to say, was partially their fault, for cursing the Elves in the first place, when they already knew the whole mission of the Noldor would lead to disaster.

The Silmarils are simply too powerful. As Melian said about something else, "the heart of the maker still lives in [them]". They flame up the world as soon as they are touched. In a way, they control the fate of Arda. I'm not sure how much of a stress this is, but in another way they are like three One Rings: having some will of their own. Maybe they just didn't want to be found?

Powerful? I think of them as something akin to money. Not terribly powerful just lying there, but powerful when the demand for them rises so that half a continent is swallowed by the Sea. I don't think they were too much like the One Ring (or any of the Rings), since Tolkien explicitly stated that it had a mind of its own, but I don't recall him saying any such thing about the Silmarils. Even so, you do have a point. It seems strange that they should be affiliated with the elements - earth, water and air - when they originally had nothing to do with them.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Galadriel

I'm not too sure about that. After all, if they did not want anything to do with the Silmarils, they would not have let Eärendil come to Valinor and bind one upon his brow.

That Silmaril was Earendil's by right. I think that not letting him wear it would be interfering on their part, and messing with them again.

And the First Age, sad to say, was partially their fault, for cursing the Elves in the first place, when they already knew the whole mission of the Noldor would lead to disaster.

Somehow, I don't think there was much cursing involved. Mandos made a prophecy.... or did he? I'm not sure if the Doom of Noldor is a curse or simply him telling what lies ahead to stop the Noldor from going...

Powerful? I think of them as something akin to money. Not terribly powerful just lying there, but powerful when the demand for them rises so that half a continent is swallowed by the Sea.

I guess you're right. They calm down when they are left alone, but are in the eye of the storm when someone touches them again. But on the other hand, although they don't have minds of their own, fate just seems to favor them. And, if you ask me, they are the second-major character of The Sil (yes, character!), after the Oath of Feanor. The third woud be Morgoth.


I sometimes wonder if they were too... otherwordly? to be left in peace in ME. It says that Luthien was too beautiful to live for long when she wore the Silmaril. And maybe the Silmarilli by themselves are too beautiful to be admired by all and yet not be lusted for.

[Galadriel]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

That Silmaril was Earendil's by right. I think that not letting him wear it would be interfering on their part, and messing with them again.

True enough, but I would think twice before letting any cursed jewellery into my realm (if I had one). This is not really related to the argument, but I don't think the Silmarils should be anyone's by right - just like certain heritage buildings are not any single person's by right.

Somehow, I don't think there was much cursing involved. Mandos made a prophecy.... or did he? I'm not sure if the Doom of Noldor is a curse or simply him telling what lies ahead to stop the Noldor from going...

As far as I can remember, it was a curse.

I guess you're right. They calm down when they are left alone, but are in the eye of the storm when someone touches them again. But on the other hand, although they don't have minds of their own, fate just seems to favor them. And, if you ask me, they are the second-major character of The Sil (yes, character!), after the Oath of Feanor. The third woud be Morgoth.

Intriguing observation

I sometimes wonder if they were too... otherwordly? to be left in peace in ME. It says that Luthien was too beautiful to live for long when she wore the Silmaril. And maybe the Silmarilli by themselves are too beautiful to be admired by all and yet not be lusted for.

I'm not sure about this. Lúthien, of course, is a child of Ilúvatar, which implies that He had some power over her making. With the Silmarils, they were made directly by Fëanor, and even though they had the Light of the Trees in them, they had little and less to do with the One (or indeed with the Valar). Even so, they appear otherworldly to me, as I do believe that Fëanor had skill that was directly gifted to him by Ilúvatar (the same way Lúthien's beauty was gifted to her). With Lúthien, there would be genetics involved, but I do not recall either Thingol or Melian described as being so startlingly beautiful.