why do elves need to go to the undying lands? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Boromir88 · 09-06-2005, 06:26 AM

Eyrie, I think you explained it quite well, no need to go into too much detail here.

Yes, elves are immortal, but that only means they can't die of old age or sickness. They can still die from a broken heart (fragile people I say) or in battle. The elves go to the Undying Lands because that marks an ending point to their life. Now, as Eyrie said, not all decide to go there, some decide to stay in Middle-earth when they will just be forgotten and fade away.

It seems you have a misconception about the Undying Lands, that it makes the people who go there immortal. Mortals who go there (Frodo, Bilbo, and eventually Gimli and Sam) will die there eventually. The Undying Lands doesn't make people immortal, the mortals who go there eventually die.

On half-elves, Eyrie explained this well, no need to go into much detail. Elrond kept saying Arwen was going to die because she was a half-elf and was going to choose a mortal life. Half-elves get this choice. Since Arwen chose to marry Aragorn, she revoked her elvish life, and would die shortly after Aragorn's death.

Mithalwen · 09-06-2005, 06:35 AM

Elves are bound to the earth and they do age albeit very slowly. As they age their spirits become dominant over their physical bodies until they become beings of spirit only (this explains in the created mythology why we don't see even a few elves around today..

). This is referred to as the fading of the elves - this process was held back in Rivendell and Lorien by the power of the Elven rings.

Tuor in Gondolin · 09-15-2005, 01:16 PM

I believe the "refusenik" elves (who didn't originally go to Aman) have
to stay on Middle-earth, and will gradually fade, while the remaining Noldor (after The War against Melkor) and the half-elven have a choice of staying and fading
or going to Aman, according to past discussions and some reading by me
in Tolkien's works. Whereas I originally thought all elves had the choice of
the half-elven.

Anguirel · 09-15-2005, 01:20 PM

Tuor-it's more like this-

Half-elves-death on Middle-earth or eternal life in Valinor. No fading.

All Elves, including "refuseniks"-fading on Middle-earth or eternal life in Valinor.

Legolas · 09-16-2005, 12:00 PM

Being immortal, elves attempt to be preservers - they try to halt change as much as possible. Change can even give men turmoil in our short lives, so it wears and tears even more on elves as they live thousands of years. In Aman, they may rejoin their kin and live in a place that changes very little.

Elrond's concern for his daughter is different, as noted by the others before me. I wrote a full explanation of Elrond and his family's mortal/immortal situation here. Simply put, they are half-elven (on each side of their family tree is the union of a man and elf). His family did many great things, and as their ancestors, he and his parents, brother, and children have the choice - mortal or immortal. He chose immortality, and his children have to make their decision before he leaves (or very shortly after).

SunniGadi · 10-19-2005, 05:48 PM

Elves are immortal in the since that they can froever age, but they can still die.

And I never remember Elrond talking about Arwen dying, just about Aragorn and their potential children dying, her having to stand and watch them pass.

wilwarin538 · 10-19-2005, 06:00 PM

Quote:

And I never remember Elrond talking about Arwen dying, just about Aragorn and their potential children dying, her having to stand and watch them pass.

Well even though Arwen did choose a mortal life, it would still take a while longer for her to die. Almost like the imortality takes awhile to leave her. I think Elrond was just saying that even though Arwen would be mortal she would still out live Aragorn by quite a bit, possibly even her own children(but I doubt that).

09-06-2005, 06:26 AM	#1
Boromir88 Laconic Loreman Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: USA Posts: 7,521	Eyrie, I think you explained it quite well, no need to go into too much detail here. Yes, elves are immortal, but that only means they can't die of old age or sickness. They can still die from a broken heart (fragile people I say) or in battle. The elves go to the Undying Lands because that marks an ending point to their life. Now, as Eyrie said, not all decide to go there, some decide to stay in Middle-earth when they will just be forgotten and fade away. It seems you have a misconception about the Undying Lands, that it makes the people who go there immortal. Mortals who go there (Frodo, Bilbo, and eventually Gimli and Sam) will die there eventually. The Undying Lands doesn't make people immortal, the mortals who go there eventually die. On half-elves, Eyrie explained this well, no need to go into much detail. Elrond kept saying Arwen was going to die because she was a half-elf and was going to choose a mortal life. Half-elves get this choice. Since Arwen chose to marry Aragorn, she revoked her elvish life, and would die shortly after Aragorn's death. __________________ Fenris Penguin

09-06-2005, 06:35 AM	#2
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,461	Elves are bound to the earth and they do age albeit very slowly. As they age their spirits become dominant over their physical bodies until they become beings of spirit only (this explains in the created mythology why we don't see even a few elves around today.. ). This is referred to as the fading of the elves - this process was held back in Rivendell and Lorien by the power of the Elven rings. __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

09-15-2005, 01:16 PM	#3
Tuor in Gondolin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Southeast Pennsylvania Posts: 3,651	I believe the "refusenik" elves (who didn't originally go to Aman) have to stay on Middle-earth, and will gradually fade, while the remaining Noldor (after The War against Melkor) and the half-elven have a choice of staying and fading or going to Aman, according to past discussions and some reading by me in Tolkien's works. Whereas I originally thought all elves had the choice of the half-elven. __________________ The poster formerly known as Tuor of Gondolin. Walking To Rivendell and beyond 12,555 miles passed Nt./Day 5: Pass the beacon on Nardol, the 'Fire Hill.'

09-15-2005, 01:20 PM	#4
Anguirel Byronic Brand Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: The 1590s Posts: 2,778	Tuor-it's more like this- Half-elves-death on Middle-earth or eternal life in Valinor. No fading. All Elves, including "refuseniks"-fading on Middle-earth or eternal life in Valinor. __________________ Among the friendly dead, being bad at games did not seem to matter -Il Lupo Fenriso

09-16-2005, 12:00 PM	#5
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	Being immortal, elves attempt to be preservers - they try to halt change as much as possible. Change can even give men turmoil in our short lives, so it wears and tears even more on elves as they live thousands of years. In Aman, they may rejoin their kin and live in a place that changes very little. Elrond's concern for his daughter is different, as noted by the others before me. I wrote a full explanation of Elrond and his family's mortal/immortal situation here. Simply put, they are half-elven (on each side of their family tree is the union of a man and elf). His family did many great things, and as their ancestors, he and his parents, brother, and children have the choice - mortal or immortal. He chose immortality, and his children have to make their decision before he leaves (or very shortly after). __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

10-19-2005, 05:48 PM	#6
SunniGadi Animated Skeleton Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Massachusetts. Yay. Posts: 26	Elves are immortal in the since that they can froever age, but they can still die. And I never remember Elrond talking about Arwen dying, just about Aragorn and their potential children dying, her having to stand and watch them pass. __________________ ~~~~~~~~~ Stuff should go here. It might eventually.