The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Books > Chapter-by-Chapter
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Today's Posts


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-29-2005, 04:18 PM   #1
Lalwendë
A Mere Boggart
 
Lalwendë's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,737
Lalwendë is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Lalwendë is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esty
Did you notice that there are slight variations in his treatment of the three?
Quote:
Originally Posted by davem
The Athelas is a subject worth returning to. It seems to have more than natural healing power. The words used to describe its effect are odd
The effects of the Athelas differ according to who is receiving the treatment:

Quote:
Then taking two leaves, he laid them on his hands and breathed on them, and then he crushed them, and straightway a living freshness filled the room, as if the air itself awoke and tingled, sparkling with joy. And then he cast the leaves into the bowls of steaming water that were brought to him, and at once all hearts were lightened. For the fragrance that came to each was like a memory of dewy mornings of unshadowed sun in some land of which the fair world in Spring is itself but a fleeting memory. But Aragorn stood up as one refreshed, and his eyes smiled as he held a bowl before Faramir's dreaming face.
Quote:
Then, whether Aragorn had indeed some forgotten power of Westernesse, or whether it was but his words of the Lady Eowyn that wrought on them, as the sweet influence of the herb stole about the chamber it seemed to those who stood by that a keen wind blew through the window, and it bore no scent, but was an air wholly fresh and clean and young, as if it had not before been breathed by any living thing and came new-made from snowy mountains high beneath a dome of stars, or from shores of silver far away washed by seas of foam.
Quote:
Then Aragorn laid his hand on Merry's head, and passing his hand gently through the brown curls, he touched the eyelids, and called him by name. And when the fragrance of athelas stole through the room, like the scent of orchards, and of heather in the sunshine full of bees, suddenly Merry awoke, and he said:
'I am hungry. What is the time?'
I wonder if the effects of the Athelas on each are a reflection of the personality of each character? For Eowyn the fragrance is what might be called an 'ozone' scent, almost like pure air but with a faint hint of snow or the sea; it reflects her youth and possibly her vitality. For Merry the scent is of things reminiscent of food strangely enough, and he immediately wakes and mentions his hunger! The scent for Faramir is more enigmatic however. The words used to describe it are quite elegiac; are they meant to reflect Faramir's experience in the harsh world?

The effects of the Athelas may reflect the characters' personalities, but maybe they reflect what Aragorn thinks of each person? Or is he using the Athelas in such a way as to evoke feelings in each patient that they will particularly respond to? Aragorn must know Merry the best out of all the three patients and perhaps the fact that Merry awakens so quickly and fully reflects this? In any case, however the scents are evoked, I think that it might be worth thinking about what the words for each character really do mean.

The Elessar is mentioned several times in this chapter and it brought to my mind where it originally came from and what purpose it had. It was made for Galadriel and I think that it had some purpose in the slowing of time in Lothlorien for the preservation of her realm. In UT there is some background about the creation of the Elessar, its use and its eventual fate:

Quote:
"What would you have then?" said Celebrimbor

"I would have trees and grass about me that do not die - here in the land that is mine," she answered. "What has become of the skill of the Eldar?" And Celebrimbor said "Where now is the stone of Earendil? And Enerdhil who made it is gone."
"They have passed over sea," said Galadriel, "With almost all fair things else. But must then Middle Earth fade and perish for ever?"

"That is its fate I deem," said Celebrimbor. "But you know that I love you (though you turn to Celeborn of the trees), and for that love I will do what I can, if happily by my art your grief can be lessened."
Quote:
Wielding the Elessar all things grew fair about Galadriel, until the coming of the shadow to the forest. But afterwards when Nenya, her chief of the three was sent her by Celebrimbor, she needed it (as she thought) no more, and she gave it to Celebrian her daughter, and so it came to Arwen and to Aragorn who was called Elessar.
I think that it is clear that the Elessar was important in preserving Lothlorien, and the text says that Galadriel wielded it, suggesting that she had to make or will it to work in some way. She also gives it up when she receives Nenya, so I presume that it must have had similar powers but was less powerful/potent or else she would not have passed it on. For many years it must have been held in Elrond's house, and he was renowned as a healer himself (and as an aside, maybe Aragorn taking the Elessar from Rivendell hastened the decline of that realm too, shadowing his 'taking' of Arwen from there).

Maybe the Elessar did indeed have healing powers? When Aragorn appears at Gandalf's side it is noteworthy that he bears 'no other token than the green stone of Galadriel'; when he is done healing he leaves Minas Tirith and he casts 'his cloak about him', as though to cover the Elessar once more. Why would Arwen wish to give Aragorn such a gift? And why would she have Galadriel pass it on for her? It is certainly a splendid love token, but Arwen must have known how it could be used.

Quote:
Then Gandalf went out in haste, and already the fire in the sky was burning out, and the smouldering hills were fading, while ash-grey evening crept over the fields.
Finally I have to mention this line as it is worded perfectly - the fires of the battlefield are dying out and in this image Tolkien uses the words which describe a dying fire: from flames there are then embers, and these finally burn away to nothing but ash.
__________________
Gordon's alive!

Last edited by Lalwendë; 08-29-2005 at 04:23 PM.
Lalwendë is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2005, 11:26 AM   #2
drigel
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
drigel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: commonplace city
Posts: 518
drigel has just left Hobbiton.
Concerning the Ellesar: The impression I always had from LOTR was that this was a symbolic peice in nature. In other words, it didnt have any intrinsic power, per say. It's wonderfull history was never even hinted at really in LOTR. I wonder if the author intentionally left it out, so as not to infer that the healing came through it's use, and as a result, put more emphasis on to Aragorn. Still, some of the historical patina of the Elessar could have been diplayed without taking away from Aragorns role in this chapter. But, as far as mortals go, it really was just a piece of elvish glass if your werent a king.

I love the rare instances of humor that occur in this chapter as well! I also see some of Gandalf's stress showing. He goes from high praise:
Quote:
: 'Men may long remember your words, Ioreth! For there is hope in them. Maybe a king has indeed returned to Gondor; or have you not heard the strange tidings that have come to the City?'
Quote:
. Thus spake Ioreth, wise-woman of Gondor: The hands of the king are the hands of a healer, and so shall the rightful king be known.'
to high scolding:
Quote:
'Then in the name of the king, go and find some old man of less lore and more wisdom who keeps some in his house!' cried Gandalf.
I will add on to Lal's nice analysis of the 3 different aspects of Athelas in the individuals by the observation of their first words:

Faramir
Quote:
'My lord, you called me. I come. What does the king command?'
Eowyn
Quote:
'I am strangely weary,' she said. 'I must rest a little. But tell me, what of the Lord of the Mark?
Merry
Quote:
'I am hungry. What is the time?'
Conclusion: Supper-Time - King of Hobbits

And finally, a quote from Aragorn:
Quote:
'I know that well, or I would not deal with you in the same way,' said Aragorn. 'May the Shire live forever unwithered!'
Given a few thousand years of dark time, I would say his prophesy came true, at least in my mind.

edit here for 2 items:

Gandalf:
Quote:
. 'For,' he said, 'long have I stood by them, and at first they spoke much in their dreaming, before they sank into the deadly darkness. Also it is given to me to see many things far off.'
Again a reference to the sight (or Sight)

Aragorn:
Quote:
. But it is my counsel that Gandalf should rule us all in the days that follow and in our dealings with the Enemy.' And they agreed upon that.
No question on authority here (as was debated on before)

Last edited by drigel; 08-31-2005 at 11:34 AM.
drigel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2005, 11:57 AM   #3
davem
Illustrious Ulair
 
davem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Quote:
'Indeed we have heard of Fangorn in Minas Tirith,' said Boromir. 'But what I have heard seems to me for the most part old wives' tales, such as we tell to our children. All that lies north of Rohan is now to us so far away that fancy can wander freely there. Of old Fangorn lay upon the borders of our realm; but it is now many lives of men since any of us visited it, to prove or disprove the legends that have come down from distant years.'...Then I need say no more,' said Celeborn. 'But do not despise the lore that has come down from distant years; for oft it may chance that old wives keep in memory word of things that once were needful for the wise to know
This comment of Celeborn’s has been mentioned by Esty & its an interesting point. ‘Old wives’ tales’ seem to be respected as a source of wisdom even by the Elves. To them seems to be attributed the retention of old wisdom, lost to the ‘wise’. In this chapter it is Ioreth who comes out with the old tradition of the ‘Hands of the king’ being the hands of a healer, which even the learned loremasters & healers of Gondor have forgotten. One can only assume that it was not included in their lorebooks, & so they had never heard of it. There is a distinction made between ‘old lore’ in which Ioreth is learned, & ‘book learning’ in which the Master of the Houses of Healing has been ‘educated’.

Quote:
And she said: 'Alas! if he should die. Would that there were kings in Gondor, as there were once upon a time, they say! For it is said in old lore: The hands of the king are the hands of a healer. And so the rightful king could ever be known.'
]

It is the ‘addendum’ here - ‘And so the rightful king could ever be known’ which is of particular interest - its not only the fact that the rightful king could heal, but the fact that his healing skills were one (perhaps the) way that the rightful king could be known. This ‘old lore’ does away with all the ‘politics’ & determines the ‘rightful king’ by what he can do. It seems that the ordinary people are less interested in heredity & inheritance, & mostly concerned with practicalities - can the king do his job? Can he care for his people? This sets up the standards & requirements of the ‘ordinary’ folk against those of their ‘lords & masters. Denethor is only interested in Aragorn’s legal claim to the throne. Because he finds that claim ‘unsubstantiated’ (he comes ‘merely’ of the House of Isildur) he will not surrender to him. Ioreth bases her judgement of Aragorn on whether he can do the job. Aragorn fulfils the people criteria - he heals the sick - so he is the ‘rightful king’.

Gandalf appeals to this:

Quote:
'Men may long remember your words, Ioreth! For there is hope in them. Maybe a king has indeed returned to Gondor;
He does say ‘Men may long remember your words’ because even he cannot guarantee that these ‘old wives tales’ will survive, but Aragorn’s appearance, ‘predicted’ by Ioreth’s words may help to awaken the people - even the learned lore masters - to the folk wisdom that still survives. Certainly Ioreth proves more useful than the Master of the Houses in this instance. He’s certainly a highly educated man. He can tell you all the names of Athelas in all the languages of Middle earth - he just can’t tell you what its for. Actually he tells you its pretty useless. At least Ioreth sees some virtue in the plant - though she seems less than impressed with it:

Quote:
"kingsfoil", I said, "'tis a strange name, and I wonder why 'tis called so; for if I were a king, I would have plants more bright in my garden". Still it smells sweet when bruised, does it not? If sweet is the right word: wholesome, maybe, is nearer.'
In comes the Master:

Quote:
'Your pardon lord!' said the man. 'I see you are a loremaster, not merely a captain of war. But alas! sir, we do not keep this thing in the Houses of Healing, where only the gravely hurt or sick are tended. For it has no virtue that we know of, save perhaps to sweeten a fouled air, or to drive away some passing heaviness. Unless, of course, you give heed to rhymes of old days which women such as our good Ioreth still repeat without understanding.
When the black breath blows
and death's shadow grows
and all lights pass,
come athelas! come athelas!
Life to the dying
In the king's hand lying!
It is but a doggerel, I fear, garbled in the memory of old wives. Its meaning I leave to your judgement, if indeed it has any. But old folk still use an infusion of the herb for headaches.'
'Then in the name of the king, go and find some old man of less lore and more wisdom who keeps some in his house!' cried Gandalf.
His dismissal of the ‘doggeral’ rhyme is also interesting. We know that ‘old wives’ & helalers of the past did not simply make use of herbs in healing by applying them in some way but that there was often a rhyme or chant involved (see Carmichael’s Carmina Gadelica, or The Nine Herbs Charm). Interestingly, in the Radio series Aragorn recites this rhyme as he crushes & scatters the leaves on the water. The fact is, the rhyme has not been ‘garbled’ at all & its survival is a tribute to folk memory. The ordinary folk tended to be unlettered & so had better memories as all information had to be memorised if it wasn’t to be lost. Because of this only really important & useful information was retained. ‘Old wives tales’, rather than being useless nonsense was actually of the greatest value - much more valuable in practical terms than what could be found in books, because once written down it could be forgotten. Again, we see that the ordinary folk, rather than being ‘ignorant’ folk with heads full of ‘superstitious nonsense’ are actually the practical ones. I think this was Celeborn’s point - ‘’for oft it may chance that old wives keep in memory word of things that once were needful for the wise to know.’ In this case an ‘old wife’ knows that it is the hands of the king that are needed to effect a cure of the sick. The Master (& Boromir we may assume) would have dismissed Ioreth’s words as ‘unscientific’ in modern terms, nonesense, doggerel, etc.

I’m reminded of the line from John Crowley’s Aegypt: ‘There is more than one history of the world’. There is a ‘history’, a wisdom, Traditions, which are dismissed as ignorant & worthless, needing to be ‘stamped out’. Gandalf, Aragorn & Celeborn (& Tolkien himself, one assumes) knew different.
davem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2005, 02:44 PM   #4
Alphaelin
Wight
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Tottering about in the Wild
Posts: 130
Alphaelin has just left Hobbiton.
Hobbits reunited

Two things stand out in this chapter for me. One is Aragorn's healing ability, which I see others also find interesting, and the other is the reunion of Merry and Pippin, and a demonstration of "unquenchable" hobbit-nature.

The chapter opens with the same atmosphere of battle-weariness which closed Chapter 7, personified in Merry. He is tired, lost and ill from the Black Breath; wandering in a sort of fog until Pippin finds him. It is touching when Pip takes charge of Merry here.
Quote:
"Are you going to bury me?" said Merry.

"No, indeed!" said Pippin, trying to sound cheerful, though his heart was wrung with fear and pity. "No, we are going to the Houses of Healing."
Once Merry gets to the HoH, Pippin seems to regain his composure enough to greet Aragorn quite "unquenchably".
Quote:
"Strider! How splendid! Do you know, I thought it was you in the black ships. But they were all shouting corsairs and wouldn't listen to me. How did you do it?"
Merry, when he wakes up, shows that he is a true hobbit by instantly demanding food, and he and Pip immediatly start discussing the possiblity of getting supper. One can only wonder what Aragorn might be thinking at this point. ('Food! Do they every think of *anything else*?' or perhaps 'Thank the Valar, he's asking for food. He's back to normal.') From his 'scolding' of Merry for losing his backpack on the field, it is probably close to the latter. This of course gives Pippin another chance at for a great line:
Quote:
"My dear ***, your pack is lying by your bed, and you had it on your back when I met you. He saw it all the time, of course."
This is an interesting transition speech, for the last line sets up Merry's thoughtful remarks, quoted by Davem in his first post on this thread.
Quote:
Dear me! We Tooks and Brandybucks, we can't live long on the heights."

[Merry] "But at least, Pippin, we can see them and honour them...
__________________
Not all those who wander are lost . . . because some of us know how to read a map.
Alphaelin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2005, 04:35 PM   #5
Lalwendë
A Mere Boggart
 
Lalwendë's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,737
Lalwendë is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Lalwendë is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by davem
‘Old wives’ tales’ seem to be respected as a source of wisdom even by the Elves. To them seems to be attributed the retention of old wisdom, lost to the ‘wise’.
This links back to the discussion earlier in the week about myth and folklore and England on the Adoption thread. As I said there, Tolkien did not make great use of English folktales, certainly not as much use as other writers have, instead creating a world of his own imaginings (boiled in stew of many ingredients ). Even so he stated he wanted to create a 'mythology' for England - folktales and mythologies are different; the former informal and the latter structured. This can mean that the folktale, almost always orally transmitted, is easily lost, while the mythology lends itself more readily to printing and publication.

Anyway, getting back to the point, it is clear that Tolkien created something new rather than attempt to 'preserve' old English folktales when he created his works and he does make reference to his antipathy of simply collecting old folktales in 'On Fairy Stories'. Here he has his characters display great respect for old folktales and find truth in them as repositories of old wisdom, which is interesting as it seems to conflict somewhat with his own view.

But here I think he is showing how the old tales should not merely be treated as simple stories, but that there may be truths in them, hidden histories maybe?
__________________
Gordon's alive!
Lalwendë is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2005, 08:20 PM   #6
Bęthberry
Cryptic Aura
 
Bęthberry's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 6,003
Bęthberry is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Bęthberry is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Bęthberry is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Bęthberry is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.
Boots

While I think this is indeed a fascinating chapter, bringing some much needed relief from the intensity of the battle scenes, what I wonder about is Tolkien's sweetly gentle humour for Merry and even Ioreth but not for others.

This is a roundabout way of considering why it is so many of us hold the hobbits so dear. Why is the humour right here for Merry? What would change if Tolkien employed humour to Faramir's situation or to Eowyn's?

It's appropriate for Ioreth and also for Merry. Does humour of this sort imply something gentle, friendly, some bond which dissipates the normal distance between readers and other characters? Is it appropriate for characters who are modest, humble, 'lower' than others on the social or the narrative scale?

And the humour is neither biting nor cutting. Neither Merry nor Ioreth are cruelly mocked here. (Is mocking reserved for those who strike too close a tone with us?)

So, is it this kind of humour one of the ways Tolkien comes to endear the hobbits to us? Among their many other admirable traits of course. Does humour create distance or does it level distance?

I'm just so full of questions tonight, sorry.
__________________
I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.
Bęthberry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2005, 11:28 AM   #7
davem
Illustrious Ulair
 
davem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Signs & Wonders

Quote:
Now as the sun went down Aragorn and Eomer and Imrahil drew near the City with their captains and knights; and when they came before the Gate Aragorn said:'Behold the Sun setting in a great fire! It is a sign of the end and fall of many things, and a change in the tides of the world.
Quote:
Then hope unlooked-for came so suddenly to Eomer's heart, and with it the bite of care and fear renewed, that he said no more, but turned and went swiftly from the hall; and the Prince followed him. And when they came forth evening had fallen and many stars were in the sky.......And Gandalf answered: ....for Denethor has departed, and his house is in ashes.' And they were filled with grief and wonder at the tale that he told.
But Imrahil said: 'So victory is shorn of gladness, and it is bitter bought....
These lines struck me - it is as if the natural world is reflecting the mood of the human participants in this 'cosmic' drama. Or even more - it is as if Eru's creation is also a participant. We see this so often in the story that we can take it for granted, but nature acts. The Sun 'sets in a great fire' & this is a sign of the fall of many things, and a change in the tides of the world' - note, Aragorn doesn't simply take heart from his sight of the sunset, he declares it to be a clear sign - but a sign sent by whom? When Eomer hears the news that his sister is not dead as he thought, but still living he sees 'many stars in the sky'. Again, given the symbolism of stars & starlight throughout the story, this also seems like a sign, a participation of the natural world in events.

Earlier in the story Legolas declared that a red sunrise was a sign that blood had been spilled in the night (the attack of the Rohirrim on the Uruks on the edge of Fangorn. Caradhras & Old Man Willow attack members of the Fellowship, a wind from the West drives back the darkness created by Sauron & dissipates the shades of Saruman & Sauron. The land of Hollin 'remembers the Elves who once dwelt there'.Nature is both 'active' in the form of aiding or thwarting individuals & 'passive' in the sense of providing 'signs', but it is always present, always a participant.

From this point of view Middle earth is also a character in the story, not simply a 'backdrop'. I can't help thinking that this may be linked to the statement in The Sil that Eru sent the Secret Fire to dwell in the heart of the earth. It seems that Middle earth is 'alive' in a real sense - though admittedly not always on the side of 'Good'.

I think it is this ambiguity which makes Middle earth seem a 'real' place to us, & causes the place to 'live' as a setting for everything from fan fic to computer games. We are drawn to Middle earth as a place in its own right, beyond the events & characters of the story. Its not simply, as with other stories, that we identify with the characters, or would like to meet them - we would like to go to Middle earth, even if the people of the story have gone. It is a world that we form an emotional 'connection' with because of the way it behaves.

Finally, its interesting that Imrahil starts off believing that Denethor is alive, & Eomer that Eowyn is dead & then their situations are reversed. Imrahil begins in hope & ends in grief, vice versa for Eomer.

The Black Shadow

Quote:
But now their art and knowledge were baffled; for there were many sick of a malady that would not be healed; and they called it the Black Shadow, for it came from the Nazgul. And those who were stricken with it fell slowly into an ever deeper dream, and then passed to silence and a deadly cold, and so died.
I'm not sure whether this 'Black Shadow' is the same as the 'Black Breath'. Certainly the effect of the Black Breath on Merry at Bree doesn't seem as overwhelming. The Black Shadow certainly has its origin in the Nazgul in the same way as the Black Breath, but it seems that without the healing skills of Aragorn the Black Breath is not curable. It is something like 'plague', like the Black Death which devastated Europe in the Middle Ages. It seems to affect the body as much as the spirit, & Aragorn's healing seems to work on two levels - he calls the victim back (soul/spirit) & uses the Athelas (body). Whatever it is, it seems it is both a symbol of the overwhelming despair suffered by the enemies of Sauron and a physical weapon of war.

Last edited by davem; 09-02-2005 at 11:32 AM.
davem is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:57 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.