M-m-meaning! Let's define, is it 'meaning' or 'Meaning', or if there's any at all...

[davem]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

Would it? Beauty is a subjective quality. It is, as they say, in the eye of the beholder. The flower would not have been beautiful (save in our imagining of it). It would merely have existed.

Meister Eckhart said something along the lines of 'If we could see even a flower as it has its being in God this would be a greater thing than the whole world'.

Maybe we're not the only observers or 'judges'. Where does our concept of 'beauty' arise, & why do we find some things 'beautiful' & others 'ugly'?

Doesn't seem to have much 'evolutionary' value as far as I can see. Maybe the 'beauty' we see in a flower is a pointer to, or memory of, something else......

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by davem

Doesn't seem to have much 'evolutionary' value as far as I can see. Maybe the 'beauty' we see in a flower is a pointer to, or memory of, something else......

I prefer the more metaphysical explanation, but this does have a basis in science. To feel repelled by something is entirely natural and it is even displayed by babies. This has a biological basis in that we are steered away from those things which are bad for us e.g. slime, rotten meat, bodily waste. It also means that we can find certain creatures repulsive, e.g. snakes, spiders, scorpions, as we have an instinct that they are dangerous. Likewise, we have the instinct to be attracted by beauty in many forms e.g. the roundness of fruits, bright colours, and yes, flowers.

The odd thing is that in the natural world, in which we are just another creature, certain species exploit this. Some fruits smell repellant - to avoid us eating them, while others are attractive so that we may spread seeds if we pick and eat them, e.g. tomatoes (they grow in large numbers at sewage farms - sorry if anyone was having their tea ).

I suppose in my own way there, I have now reduced this discussion to something crude...

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by davem

Maybe we're not the only observers or 'judges'.

I never said that we weren't. The author will obviously find meaning in his work, post-creation as it were, just as his readers will. But if the author is dead (or if he never existed ) and there is no-one to perceive his work, then it can have no meaning. Something can only have meaning if there is someone for it to mean something to. But I sense we are starting out down a familiar path ...

Where does our concept of 'beauty' arise, & why do we find some things 'beautiful' & others 'ugly'?

Doesn't seem to have much 'evolutionary' value as far as I can see. Maybe the 'beauty' we see in a flower is a pointer to, or memory of, something else......

As Lalwendë has pointed out, there is evolutionary value in perception of beauty, attraction, repulsion and the like. But here is not the place for a detailed discussion of the point. Although it might be interesting to consider why (rather than how) works like LotR have meaning to their readers.