“Not all those who wander are lost.”

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by davem

I wasn't talking about the sea, but the Sea.

I see. And so this is another example of a localised social and historical trait that is extrapolated into a Universal value applicable to every history and society?

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Child

Overall, though, and in contrast to Bilbo, Frodo is someone who would rather have stayed home and enjoyed the benefits of Bag-end. Strange, but I don't get this same sense of reluctance from any of the other hobbits who set out from the Shire. Sam is excited about seeing Elves, and Merry and Pippin seem bound up in the whole idea of being with friends and going on an adventure. Of course, none of them realizes the seriousness of their path to the same extent that Frodo does.

I was thinking about this idea in relation to Hobbits today so this was interesting. What I came up with was that even though Hobbits as a people are not wanderers in the sense of travelling great distances to unknown lands, they do seem to enjoy wandering within The Shire. Even Frodo seems to enjoy this, and when he eventually sets out from Bag End he seeks to go by paths he has enjoyed. In this respect, they are like Tom Bombadil. They do not wander to explore, but to enjoy the familiar and maybe to look a little deeper at the small things they see around them.

But Hobbits in general are also said to be quite insular, suspicious of 'foreigners' from Bree, and even suspicious of those from other parts of The Shire. This too can be said of the Gondorians at the time of the War of the Ring, and they too are not an essentialy bad people, just a people in danger or in decline. So maybe being static is not in all cases necessarily a bad thing. It may lead to limited mental horizons, which in the case of Gondor is almost its downfall, but it is not a bad thing in essence. Interestingly, we see what happens when a culture does become too static - in Moria. The Dwarves here were static and their community was eventually destroyed.

So must it be a difference in the type of stasis? Or is it that stasis in itself not necessarily bad, but can nevertheless lead to disaster?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Excellent posts so far - thanks to all participants! I'm enjoying this discussion as much as I'd hoped to! Two thoughts that occur to me as we go on:

First of all, I wouldn't separate the spiritual aspect from the physical act of wandering. There may be occasions where one occurs without the other, but very frequently, they are closely connected. Body and mind work together more than we consciously realize, and movement/change of the one will produce awareness of the possibility of change in the other. I have experienced that effect in exercise groups that do physical therapy with psychological effects. I also recall reading at least two books that tell of the changes in a person's life taking place in connection with walking or running.

The other thought that I had concerns Aragorn. When he settled down in Minas Tirith to become King, he chose "Telcontar" as the name of his house - meaning "Strider", of course. Isn't it striking that he, who had so many names from which he could have chosen, decided to emphasize that aspect of his personality? It would seem to me that he wanted to make clear that he would keep that wandering outlook on life, the broad point of view, even after he resided primarily in one fixed place. And of course he did continue to travel, to the northern part of the Kingdom, to the Shire, and certainly to other places as well.

(Cross-posted with Lal - interesting thoughts on stasis. I would agree that it is not 'evil' as such, but it means stagnation, lack of growth, and that must almost inevitably lead to negative results.)

[davem]

I see. And so this is another example of a localised social and historical trait that is extrapolated into a Universal value applicable to every history and society?

Yes.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by davem

Quote:
I see. And so this is another example of a localised social and historical trait that is extrapolated into a Universal value applicable to every history and society?



Yes.

davem, I bet your map of the world is still covered with pink.

Estelyn and everyone here: intriguing ideas! Just for the sake of exploring the idea of wandering more, and who wanders, I'd like to point out that this list of wanderers includes only one female, Eowyn, who wanders only to end up in 'a cage of her own choosing.'

Does Arwen 'wander'? She does of course make the most significant spiritual choice in LotR, after, perhaps Frodo. And Tolkien has her leaving Gondor after Aragorn's death, to wander back to Cerin Amroth.

Of course, Rosie Cotton doesn't wander. Nor does Sam, does he, after he returns to the Shire (except for going West ultimately). Yet his children do: one daughter in particular is important for her 'moving on'.

On the other hand, when the Ring quest is complete, Gandalf does say he has finished his wandering and makes an important comment about the hobbits:

Originally Posted by Tolkien in Homeward Bound

"I am not coming to the Shire. You must settle its affairs yourselves; that is what you have been trained for. Do you not yet understand? My time is over: it is no longer my task to set things to rights, nor to help folk to do so. And as for you, my dear friends, you will need no help. You are grown up now. Grown indeed very high; among the great you are, and I have no longer any fear at all for any of you."

"But if you would know, I am turning aside soon. I am going to have a long talk with Bombadil: such a talk as I have not had in all my time. He is a moss-gatherer, and I have been a stone doomed to rolling. But my rolling days are ending, and now we shall have much to say to one another."

I think there is indeed a very close relationship between the need for stimulation--'agency' it has been called by some--and exploration, spiritual as well as other forms--but I wonder (no homophohic pun intended) if there isn't also a flip side here, that ultimately there is also the expectation that the benefits acquired from 'wandering' should somehow be returned. One journies in order to bring back the wealth of the experience, to expand those who have not?

I fear I'm being rather foggy this morning. My coffee must not have been strong enough. I do hope I'm not 'rambling' too much here. (sowwy, cannot resist.)

EDIT: Just so you all know, I have copied some of my and davem's posts from here to Sauce's thread, Does LotR have cross-cultural appeal?, so I wouldn't take the discussion here off topic.

[Lyta_Underhill]

originally posted by Child of the 7th Age:

First, Tolkien makes a point of saying that the place where you start from is almost as important as the wandering you do.

originally posted by Estelyn Telcontar:

The other thought that I had concerns Aragorn. When he settled down in Minas Tirith to become King, he chose "Telcontar" as the name of his house - meaning "Strider", of course. Isn't it striking that he, who had so many names from which he could have chosen, decided to emphasize that aspect of his personality?

An interesting discussion indeed! And I do think it is significant that the good guys all remember their origins and emphasize them in latter days. I find it fascinating to consider the position of Barliman Butterbur as the hobbits and Gandalf return to stay with him for but a short time after the War of the Ring--his surprise and sudden enlightenment when told that "Strider" is actually the returned King of Gondor and Arnor, and that he "knows and loves" Bree and doesn't forget it. Butterbur is in a unique position to appreciate the length of Aragorn's journey, if not to understand how he got from here to there. It is in that moment that we realize that the wanderer was not lost, because he did not lose sight of the simple folk of Bree, even after ascending to the throne.

In this light, we consider others--particularly Arwen and Frodo, who always seemed linked by some ethereal thread to me (symbolized perhaps by the jewel she gives to him and the fact that they both wander away from others in the end). Arwen has lost her roots in a literal way--she has come from the line of the immortal Elves, who have all deserted her (of course, it is she who is the deserter with relation to them). She has lost, in an essential way, her beginnings and has become transformed. All that she has gained has been lost as she is a point in the wilderness, alone once Aragorn is dead.

In this same way, Frodo has given up his life in the Shire, and returns to it unable to share in its bounty. He ends up making the long journey away, breaking earthly ties and going over the Sea. In an essential way, these two have lost their origins, become transformed beyond the ability to remain anchored in Middle Earth. Both tarry awhile but in the end, both must go off alone. Perhaps this is the beginning of the great journey, which each one of us must make alone. Who knows how to retain the thread of one's beginnings when one makes the journey out of Middle Earth, or, in Arwen's case, where few Elves have gone before, but every Man, all journeying alone.

I'm not sure if this post makes sense, but I'll post it anyway, hoping someone will get something out of it! I think my coffee isn't reaching my brain very well today! Great discussion!

Cheers!
Lyta

[davem]

Originally Posted by Bb

davem, I bet your map of the world is still covered with pink.

I was of course only referring to cultures that have links to the sea in some way. Cultures that have never known the sea would have some other 'natural' image that served the same purpose - the Desert, Mountains, plains, Forest etc.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by davem

I was of course only referring to cultures that have links to the sea in some way. Cultures that have never known the sea would have some other 'natural' image that served the same purpose - the Desert, Mountains, plains, Forest etc.

Oh of course, absolutely, and by all means.