M-m-meaning! Let's define, is it 'meaning' or 'Meaning', or if there's any at all... - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

**The Saucepan Man** · 08-25-2005, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

If no-one ever saw a particular flower before it wilted and died, it would have been just as beautiful as it would have been if someone had seen it.

Would it? Beauty is a subjective quality. It is, as they say, in the eye of the beholder. The flower would not have been beautiful (save in our imagining of it). It would merely have existed.

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 08-25-2005, 10:21 AM

So the Earth was not beautiful until it was inhabited by intelligent life? (I think we're still on-topic

)

the guy who be short · 08-25-2005, 01:53 PM

There was nobody to find it beautiful.

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 08-25-2005, 02:40 PM

I think a book can be meaningful even if there's no-one to offer a spin on it.

davem · 08-25-2005, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

Would it? Beauty is a subjective quality. It is, as they say, in the eye of the beholder. The flower would not have been beautiful (save in our imagining of it). It would merely have existed.

Meister Eckhart said something along the lines of 'If we could see even a flower as it has its being in God this would be a greater thing than the whole world'.

Maybe we're not the only observers or 'judges'. Where does our concept of 'beauty' arise, & why do we find some things 'beautiful' & others 'ugly'?

Doesn't seem to have much 'evolutionary' value as far as I can see. Maybe the 'beauty' we see in a flower is a pointer to, or memory of, something else......

Lalwendë · 08-25-2005, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davem

Doesn't seem to have much 'evolutionary' value as far as I can see. Maybe the 'beauty' we see in a flower is a pointer to, or memory of, something else......

I prefer the more metaphysical explanation, but this does have a basis in science. To feel repelled by something is entirely natural and it is even displayed by babies. This has a biological basis in that we are steered away from those things which are bad for us e.g. slime, rotten meat, bodily waste. It also means that we can find certain creatures repulsive, e.g. snakes, spiders, scorpions, as we have an instinct that they are dangerous. Likewise, we have the instinct to be attracted by beauty in many forms e.g. the roundness of fruits, bright colours, and yes, flowers.

The odd thing is that in the natural world, in which we are just another creature, certain species exploit this. Some fruits smell repellant - to avoid us eating them, while others are attractive so that we may spread seeds if we pick and eat them, e.g. tomatoes (they grow in large numbers at sewage farms - sorry if anyone was having their tea

).

I suppose in my own way there, I have now reduced this discussion to something crude...

**The Saucepan Man** · 08-25-2005, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davem

Maybe we're not the only observers or 'judges'.

I never said that we weren't. The author will obviously find meaning in his work, post-creation as it were, just as his readers will. But if the author is dead (or if he never existed

) and there is no-one to perceive his work, then it can have no meaning. Something can only have meaning if there is someone for it to mean something to. But I sense we are starting out down a familiar path ...

Quote:

Where does our concept of 'beauty' arise, & why do we find some things 'beautiful' & others 'ugly'?

Doesn't seem to have much 'evolutionary' value as far as I can see. Maybe the 'beauty' we see in a flower is a pointer to, or memory of, something else......

As Lalwendë has pointed out, there is evolutionary value in perception of beauty, attraction, repulsion and the like. But here is not the place for a detailed discussion of the point. Although it might be interesting to consider why (rather than how) works like LotR have meaning to their readers.

View Poll Results: The 'real meaning' of the Lord of the Rings is to be found in:
The Author's intent	2	7.14%
The Reader's individual opinion	6	21.43%
Mainstream Reader consensus	0	0%
The BarrowDowns Book Forum consensus	2	7.14%
A Glimpse of Divine Truth	1	3.57%
The Reader's collaboration with both the Author's intent and the opinions of others	4	14.29%
Divine Truth glimpsed by the individual Reader guided by the Author's intent	3	10.71%
It does not have to have a 'meaning' at all, the books are entertaining, and that's sufficient	5	17.86%
All of the above may be true up to an extent	5	17.86%
Current poll does not cover all possible options at all, we need another, refined one [if you choose this answer, please list other possible options in the thread. Thank you]	0	0%
Voters: 28. You may not vote on this poll

08-25-2005, 10:21 AM	#2
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,859	So the Earth was not beautiful until it was inhabited by intelligent life? (I think we're still on-topic ) __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

08-25-2005, 02:40 PM	#4
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,859	I think a book can be meaningful even if there's no-one to offer a spin on it. __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

08-25-2005, 01:53 PM	#3
the guy who be short Shadowed Prince Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Thulcandra Posts: 2,343	There was nobody to find it beautiful.