LotR -- Book 5 - Chapter 07 - The Pyre of Denethor

[Bêthberry]

Once again Estelyn, a good introduction to the discussion!

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

Imrahil plays a small yet vital role again - how do we account for his position that makes him a candidate for temporary ruler?

You know, at this point in the story I wasn't wondering why Imrahil was given command. I wondered on what point of law or legal right Gandalf could take that decision upon himself to give a military command. What authority does Gandalf have to assign Imrahil the command?

Originally Posted by Estelyn

What role did the palantír play in all of this? Do you think Denethor had the right to use it?

The point which I find absolutely fascinating here is the suggestion that the palantir survives the pyre of Denethor.

Originally Posted by Tolkien

Casting the pieces into the blaze he bowed and laid himself on the table, clasping the palantir with both hands upon his breast. And it was said that ever after, if any man looked in that Stone, unless he had great strength of will to turn it to other purpose, he saw only two aged hands withering in flame.

What grounds for an RPG, eh?

Originally Posted by Estelyn

The chapter ends with a note on the weather - the combination of fire and rain results in smoke. Do you see any significance in that?

Habeus Rex?

[Alphaelin]

To take up Estelyn's first point in the introductory post: Why would Faramir be so important to Pippin and to the story? I don't know if it would be considered a backstory or not, but through Pippin's eyes we are shown more of Faramir's nature.

Although we readers have met Faramir and have already seen his fortitude in refusing to take the Ring from Frodo, Pippin knows nothing of this. He is 'introduced' to Faramir by Gandalf's description of him, and the praise of Beregond. The reader is thus given more insight into the nature of Denethor's younger son.

Gandalf:

"He [Denethor] is not as other men of this time...by some chance the blood of Westernesse runs nearly true in him; as it does in his other son, Faramir, and yet did not in Boromir whom he loved best."

Beregond:

"But things may change when Faramir returns. He is bold; more bold than many deem, for in these days men are slow to believe that a captain can be wise and learned in the scrolls of lore and song, as he is, yet a man of hardihood and swift judgement in the field. But such is Faramir."

We see in both these quotes the start of a pattern in which Faramir is constantly compared to his older brother, either favorably (by Gandalf and Beregond and even Sam in TTT) or unfavorably (by Denethor).

The importance of Faramir may be that he does compare so favorably with his father and brother. So far, Gondor's ruling family has been represented largely by Boromir's pride and dependence on physical prowess and Denethor's pride and dependence on his mental and political abilities. Then Pippin gets his first sight of Faramir.

Yet suddenly for Faramir his heart was strangely moved with a feeling that he had not known before. Here was one with an air of high nobility such as Aragorn sometimes revealed, less high perhaps, yet also less incalculable and remote: one of the Kings of Men born into a later time, but touched with the wisdom and sadness of the Elder Race. He knew now why Beregond spoke his name with love. Here was a Captain that men would follow, that he would follow, even under the shadow of the black wings."

Faramir has the gift of inspiring instant devotion in his troops, he is described as both wise and courageous and in his determination to do his duty to Gondor ("unblessed" by his demanding father, no less!) we see a further example of his nobility. Perhaps Tolkien wanted to show someone besides Aragorn who could demonstrate the best of traits of the Numenorians. Or from a political standpoint, as the heir to the Stewardship Faramir was in a position to inspire resistance to Aragorn's claim to the throne of Gondor, which his father would certainly have done. With Faramir as the Steward, however, the stage is set for an orderly transfer of power into Aragorn's hands.


Also, here is a little tidbit to consider about the sons of Denethor. Boromir dying to save Pippin and Merry probably ended up saving his brother's life. Pippin swore fealty to Denethor inspired by his liking for Boromir and his gratitude for Boromir's sacrifice. Denethor kept Pippin near him as a reminder of Boromir. When Denethor decided to burn himself and Faramir, a Gondorian soldier might not have thought to question Denethor's orders or seek help from Gandalf, as Pippin did.

[Lhunardawen]

Originally Posted by Esty

Why does Pippin go through so much effort to save Faramir's life? Do we have any back story that would explain that?

I think this sentiment goes back to when Pippin first saw Faramir. He realized why Beregond spoke of his Captain with so much love and reverence, and found out for himself that Faramir is indeed the kind of leader anyone would follow even unto death. Since he has become a 'Man' of Gondor, it is his duty to look after its welfare; seeing that the ruling steward has turned pyromaniacally suicidal and is about to bring his son - his only remaining 'heir' - to the pyre with him, he knew he had to take action.

Sauron's influence is most sharply felt in divisiveness, even to the point of killing friends instead of foes. What is your opinion on Beregond's role in this unhappy event? Should he have acted differently?

That brings me to wonder whether or not I agree with Gandalf in this:

'Work of the Enemy!' said Gandalf. 'Such deeds he loves: friend at war with friend; loyalty divided in confusion of hearts.'

Sauron's work, as I see it, was in Denethor alone, yet it created a ripple effect that Beregond was caught up in. While Beregond's deed is not completely of Sauron's making, it was an inevitable effect. But come to think of it, did his killing of the porter bring more good than harm? If he did not resort to that, what would have happened to Faramir, and to Gondor ultimately?

The chapter ends with a note on the weather - the combination of fire and rain results in smoke. Do you see any significance in that?

Hmm...smoke is the 'aftermath' of the rain drenching the fire. False hope? Darkness clouding the light to take away hope? A temporary truce? Can fire be rekindled from smoke?

That's all for now, folks.

[davem]

'Since when has the Lord of Gondor been answerable to thee?' said Denethor. 'Or may I not command my own servants?'

Denethor again shows that he believes himself to be absolute monarch of Gondor - or perhaps something more. He seems to believe that his position gives him power of life & death over his servants, There is no room on their part for moral choices. Whatever Denethor says is Law & his servants must obey. Power has gone to his head. The slaves of the Dark Lord slay themselves at the command of the WK, & it seems that Denethor demands no less. The oath sworn by Pippin (& one assumes by the others in the service of Gondor/Denethor) is very precise:

'Here do I swear fealty and service to Gondor, and to the Lord and Steward of the realm, to speak and to be silent, to do and to let be, to come and to go, in need or plenty, in peace or war, in living or dying, from this hour henceforth, until my lord release me, or death take me, or the world end.

In Denethor’s mind at least this oath is little better than an ‘oath’ of slavery. Once sworn it gives Denethor power to command whatever he will & obliges (as far as he is concerned) his servants to obey his will without question. He cannot seem to get free of this idea - even when his ‘power’ extends to the life & death of his son. He simply cannot understand how anyone in his service could question any of his commands.

The interesting thing is that when he is confronted with the outcome of his command to Faramir he is broken by it. He commanded his son to undertake what was effectively a suicide mission, but when his son is apparently mortally wounded as a result of his order, he snaps. He claims the power of life & death over others, but he cannot accept the consequences. Shockingly, he still cannot break himself of using that power. He has seen the result of its use first hand & yet he is still driven by his pride to command his servants to commit murder. Like Saruman, he has looked into the Palantir & striven with Sauron. Saruman surrendered, Denethor did not, but it seems that in some way both of them ended up by ‘imitating’ Sauron in the way they treat their servants.

What’s interesting in this context is the way Denethor’s servants seem to accept this power. They don’t seem (apart from Beregond) to question Denethor’s will. They seem little better than robots, apparently feeling that the oath they swore removes their own moral responsibility & they can claim that whatever they do they we’re ‘only obeying orders’. We see how far Gondor has fallen.

Finally, Denethor’s comment is interesting:

'Hope on then!' laughed Denethor. 'Do I not know thee, Mithrandir? Thy hope is to rule in my stead, to stand behind every throne, north, south, or west.

Denethor accuses Gandalf of desiring to replace him and to ‘stand behind every throne’. Denethor betrays his true sense of himself here - he, Denethor, should rightfully stand behind every throne - not Gandalf. He can only think in terms of rule, power, control. In his mind Gandalf can desire no more than to replace him - what higher aim could he have? Saruman has accused Gandalf of the same desire & no doubt Sauron believes the same thing. Once exposed to the mind & will of Sauron it seems that the individual is infected by his mindset - whether they surrender & offer fealty or not.

[the phantom]

Imrahil plays a small yet vital role again - how do we account for his position that makes him a candidate for temporary ruler?

You know, at this point in the story I wasn't wondering why Imrahil was given command. I wondered on what point of law or legal right Gandalf could take that decision upon himself to give a military command. What authority does Gandalf have to assign Imrahil the command?

I suppose it might seem a bit presumptuous for Gandalf to go around appointing people and such, but seeing as he is a person of importance in the city (he was a seventh circle regular, a royal advisor, and was given clearance to come and go as he pleased) he might as well give orders, especially since he knew what was best.

For instance, when my friends and I play a game of football, I don't hold any sort of legal power, but when I say "Ok, here's what we're going to do..." my friends don't argue with me. They believe that I am properly qualified to lead them and make decisions so I really don't need to "pull rank" on them.

I think the same thing goes for Gandalf. He is qualified to lead and make decisions and he is powerful and everyone knows it, so why not give orders?

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by the phantom

I suppose it might seem a bit presumptuous for Gandalf to go around appointing people and such, but seeing as he is a person of importance in the city (he was a seventh circle regular, a royal advisor, and was given clearance to come and go as he pleased) he might as well give orders, especially since he knew what was best.

For instance, when my friends and I play a game of football, I don't hold any sort of legal power, but when I say "Ok, here's what we're going to do..." my friends don't argue with me. They believe that I am properly qualified to lead them and make decisions so I really don't need to "pull rank" on them.

I think the same thing goes for Gandalf. He is qualified to lead and make decisions and he is powerful and everyone knows it, so why not give orders?

Because Mithrandir has a dubious reputation in several places over Middle-earth and it is only readers who have a complete trust in him. And Pippin and the hobbits. Make that only these particular hobbits.

My question isn't really so much about 'pulling rank' as asking how and why characters in M-e come to have 'authority.' Or even simply, 'what is authority?'--which is I think one of the larger issues in this chapter especially in light of Beregond.

[the phantom]

how and why characters in M-e come to have 'authority.'

Oh, that's an easy one. According to Dennis the peasant, the authority comes from "a mandate from the masses".

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

I'm of the opinion that a farcical aquatic ceremony is the only legitimate means of conferring true authority.

Now that my jest is guaranteed an intelligible context, here are a few brief thoughts on this chapter.

In her excellent introduction, Estelyn posed the question:

Do you think the palantír came as a surprise to Gandalf, or did he suspect that all along?

I think that we can approach an answer by looking at an earlier passage. In Minas Tirith, Beregond tells Pippin:

And the Lord Denethor is not like other men: he sees far. Some say that as he sits alone in his high chamber inm the Tower at night, and bends his thought this way and that, he can read somewhat of the future; and that he will at times search even the mind of the Enemy, wrestling with him.

If this rumour, which was obviously current among the guards of the Citadel, reached Gandalf's ears, I doubt that he would have found it very difficult to put together 'he sees far' and the meaning of Palantír. In fact, I think it very likely that Gandalf knew that there was a Palantír in Minas Tirith, and feared that someone might be tempted to use it.

The reference to 'wrestling' with Sauron naturally brings to mind the earlier contest which Aragorn initiated using the Palantír of Orthanc, which he won only by the narrowest of margins. The events of this chapter are, then, foreshadowed much earlier in the narrative and only at this point explained as they come to a head.

The reference to 'heathen kings' reminds me of a passage from Beowulf, one of the narrator's many Christian comments on the events in the narrative:

Hwilum hie geheton æt hærgtrafum
wigweorþunga, wordum bædon
þæt him gastbona geoce gefremede
wið þeodþreaum. Swylc wæs þeaw hyra,
hæþenra hyht; helle gemundon

in modsefan, metod hie ne cuþon,
dæda demend, ne wiston hie drihten god,
ne hie huru heofena helm herian ne cuþon,
wuldres waldend.

Sometimes at pagan shrines they vowed
offerings to idols, swore oaths
that the killer of souls might come to their aid
and save the people. That was their way,
their heathenish hope; deep in their hearts
they remembered hell. The Almighty Judge
of good deeds and bad, the lord God,
Head of the Heavens and High King of the World,
was unknown to them.

Lines 185a-173a. Translation by Seamus Heaney.

The appeal of both of these comments is to an awareness of the superiority of present faith over the untutored heathendom of the past. Gandalf is appealing to Denethor's cultural vanity by comparing him with the untutored forebears of Men. The implication is that there is a higher power than temporal strength at work in the world, but Denethor's pride will never allow him to see it. He has been considering the struggle in terms of military strength and political alliance, so that he succumbs to despair just as his fortunes are about to revive. Those who hope on against all odds, whom he considers to be deluding themselves, are eventually justified.

I'm afraid that I don't have time to give any more than those very brief ideas, but I hope that they are of some use.