Do Balrogs Have Wings?

[Mister Underhill]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I've never seen a good response to these points. Usually when they are brought up the pro-wingers start humming and hawing and try to change the subject.

With all due respect, I've never been much impressed by these arguments. They rely on conjecture about so many things.

For starters, how can you draw anatomical conclusions regarding lift and mass about a creature that exudes flame and shadow, even if we did have anything more than the barest of hints as to its proportions (how tall is a "great height"?)?

The Chamber of Mazarbul is a "large" square chamber, with a "high" door opening off of a "wide" corridor. Clearly there's some room to work here. What do these adjectives mean? Any dimensions you produce are pure guesswork.

The Second Hall is "cavernous", but "loftier and far longer" than the one they slept in (which again is given no certain dimensions). Is it as wide as the original chamber? Less so? How wide is that? All guesswork.

Bottom line, this whole wing mass argument doesn't make me hum and haw, it makes me say: all pure speculation.

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Mister Underhill

With all due respect, I've never been much impressed by these arguments. They rely on conjecture about so many things.

For starters, how can you draw anatomical conclusions regarding lift and mass about a creature that exudes flame and shadow, even if we did have anything more than the barest of hints as to its proportions (how tall is a "great height"?)?

But it's fairly clear that Balrogs were incarnated and thus bound to physical laws. Is there suspicion that the physics of flight in Middle-earth may differ from those in the modern world?

The Chamber of Mazarbul is a "large" square chamber, with a "high" door opening off of a "wide" corridor. Clearly there's some room to work here. What do these adjectives mean? Any dimensions you produce are pure guesswork.

The Second Hall is "cavernous", but "loftier and far longer" than the one they slept in (which again is given no certain dimensions). Is it as wide as the original chamber? Less so? How wide is that? All guesswork.

The rebuttal to this line of reasoning that I have seen points to the definition of "chasm" which is described as "narrow." To be considered "narrow" it would need to be longer than it is wide, and we do have a figure for the span of the bridge, although I can't recall exactly what it is. 50 feet?

Bottom line, this whole wing mass argument doesn't make me hum and haw, it makes me say: all pure speculation.

You're right, but I think it's logical speculation.

Edit: Yeah, I'm not sure which dictionary qualifies chasms as narrow. Maybe it's a myth.

[Mister Underhill]

But it's fairly clear that Balrogs were incarnated and thus bound to physical laws. Is there suspicion that the physics of flight in Middle-earth may differ from those in the modern world?

I don't know. Has anyone ever done any calculations on what Smaug's wingspan would need to be? What are the physics of Legolas being able to walk on top of snow? I feel comfortable discarding these suppositions about Balrogs, especially when they proceed from such little starting information. How tall, exactly, is a Balrog? What does it weigh? What anatomical device allows it to exude flame and shadow? You can't start doing math on completely conjectural figures and convince anyone who has any kind of a textual commitment to the wings debate.

The rebuttal to this line of reasoning that I have seen points to the definition of "chasm" which is described as "narrow."

Hmm... just glanced over the passage -- the bridge is "narrow", but I don't see the adjective applied to the chasm. If I've missed it, I'm sure you'll provide the cite.

Besides, I think it's the walls of the Hall that the wings are spread to, not the sides of the chasm, however big it is (we don't know). There's no textual evidence here at all as far as I can see, and not even enough of a basis for logical supposition or inference.

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Mister Underhill

I don't know. Has anyone ever done any calculations on what Smaug's wingspan would need to be? What are the physics of Legolas being able to walk on top of snow? I feel comfortable discarding these suppositions about Balrogs, especially when they proceed from such little starting information. How tall, exactly, is a Balrog? What does it weigh? What anatomical device allows it to exude flame and shadow? You can't start doing math on completely conjectural figures and convince anyone who has any kind of a textual commitment to the wings debate.

Well I think most of us just assumed that Tolkien's imaginary history of our earth conforms to the same laws of nature. That Smaug was appropriately proportioned for flight is evidenced by the fact that he flew. The actual calculations don't really matter, unless someone challenges the logistics of him being X big, thus having Y wingspan, and still fitting into Z cavern. The same goes for his fire-breath: we assume there was some physiological mechanic that allowed for it, from the gland that shoots the flammable substance, to its ignition, to the fire-resistant flesh that must have coated his snout. The Balrog's flame and shadow may have been something different, something related to the eala's fiery nature. The math and biology of these things doesn't come into question, however, since reasonable assumptions can be made about them without creating conflicts.

Besides, I think it's the walls of the Hall that the wings are spread to, not the sides of the chasm, however big it is (we don't know). There's no textual evidence here at all as far as I can see, and not even enough of a basis for logical supposition or inference.

If there's a tiny little bridge across the gap I think it's reasonable to suppose that the gap, too, stretches from wall to wall. Otherwise there'd be less perilous ways to cross near the walls. If the bridge spans a 50-foot chasm, and if a chasm is, in fact, defined as "narrow," then the width of the room would necessarily be greater than 50 feet, and therefore so would the Balrog's literal wingspan. Such a wingspan would be unwieldy for a being that could fit through the man-sized doorways and halls of Moria. But I didn't mean to imply that the text called the gap "narrow," only that I once read an article that cited a dictionary entry qualifying chasms as such.

[Mister Underhill]

The math and biology of these things doesn't come into question, however, since reasonable assumptions can be made about them without creating conflicts.

I guess my point is that you can't make a convincing argument that the Balrog couldn't enter such and such a room when you don't know:

• Anything about the Balrog's anatomy except that he's in shouting distance of man-height (and has wings ).
• The size of the door.
• The size of the room.

You can make stuff up until the cows come home, but the only thing we know for sure is that the bridge span across the chasm is about 50 feet long.

I'm a bit confused on your extrapolation about the chasm, the bridge, etc. The Balrog stands at the foot of a bridge. The bridge reaches 50 feet to the far side of the chasm. Given that its wings spread "from wall to wall" perpendicular to the bridge, how can we infer anything about its wingspan from this information?

[obloquy]

The idea is that if the bridge spans 50 feet, and a chasm is by definition "narrow" (longer than it is across), then the chasm must be more than 50 feet long and thus the room is more than 50 feet wide. If the Balrog's wings were literal, then they literally stretched the entire width of the room ("width" being the space that is perpendicular to the bridge's span), making his wingspan greater than 50 feet.

[Mister Underhill]

I guess I just don't get (1) how you deduce that the chasm is narrow one way or another or (2) even if it is, how this affects the question at hand. I've done up a little thumbnail sketch and attached it to show where I'm coming from.