Canon: what ARE we babbling about?

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Mr Underhill

For if you are bound and determined to exclude The Hobbit from your conception of the Legendarium, it is your Middle-earth that is diminished, not mine -- a fruitless victory indeed, I should think. And little more than an intellectual exercise, I might add

This is the statement of today which had me nodding most. It is indeed an intellectual exercise to seek to exclude The Hobbit; whether it is an emotional, heartfelt reaction that is being expressed here I do not know, but if it is, then I should rather take this than an intellectual exercise which actually spoils my enjoyment of Middle-earth.

Originally Posted by Bethberry

And I am suggesting that your reasons for saying it belongs outside the Legendarium are based on a faulty assumption that only linear, logically consistent lines are meaningful in literary creation. TH was the start of something. That something might have ended up somewhat different from its genesis, but to say that TH does not belong with or 'inside' the Legendarium is to force a particular form of relationship on the works, one which denies or overlooks or denigrates the illogic nature of literary creation.

You have articulated the random nature of 'magic' in literature here. And I agree that this is what I think happened in the creation of first The Hobbit and then LotR. It's right that you can't force a relationship on the works. They do work together though, despite being diverse, and Tolkien appreciated the relationship, despite his perfectionism.

Originally Posted by davem

TH was not written to be part of the Legendarium (as LotR was) so should it be included?

LotR was not intended to be part of the legendarium, it was intended to be the sequel to the Hobbit! It then became part of the legendarium, just as the Hobbit did.

Originally Posted by davem

It does mean we will read LotR in a different way. Everything you give from TH as 'necessary' to an understanding of LotR, can be countered by things in it which will cause confusion & perhaps break the spell - the Trolls, the 'Elves of Rivendell', Beorn's animals. The only way you seem to be able to account for them is by some wild theory that Bilbo's account was exagerated to such an extent that in large part what he says is completely wrong & untrustworthy.

No. I had no problem whatsoever moving on from The Hobbit to LotR. Nothing struck me as odd, and I had to create no theory.