Do Balrogs Have Wings?

[Morsul the Dark]

Ok lets think this through morgoth mocked life right?

Orc=elves
trolls=ents
balrogs=???dragons possibly

if this is true we can assume balrogs have wings on the basis that dragons(most notibly smaug) had wings and as for wing folding that depepends on the wing strutcure it could indeed fold quite tiughtly though i do agree that is a dangerous blow to the wing theory however considering a balrog flight is quitew possible with wings thinking it through most biords ride on air current which has to do with hot air and such doesnt the bakrid provide its own rising heat to glide upon.

Scientificly speaking were looking at raptor like wings made for gliding not so much flapping which would make them more leathery and in fact thinner because there would be less need for muscle in the wing which in turn would make it easier for the wings to be folded into smaller area of space.

Another thing however against wings is the fact that balrogs live underground(Im talking moria if you know more about other balrog locals please tell me) and if all balrogs were to live mainly underground isnt it in fact useless to form with wings.

However no conclusion ever will be reached I myself believe balrogs have wings.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Morsul the Dark

Ok lets think this through morgoth mocked life right?

Morgoth did not create Balrogs ...

[Morsul the Dark]

true but one would assume he had a hand in shaping them

edit:this isnt cryptic clues you dnt have to continuously shoot me down just kidding

I thought he did create them but at any rate wouldn't he have helped shape balrogs?

[Kuruharan]

balrogs=???dragons possibly

Uhh...no. Whatever his reasons in corrupting balrogs, mocking dragons were not among them because Morgoth had not conceived of breeding/corrupting dragons yet.

as for wing folding that depepends on the wing strutcure it could indeed fold quite tiughtly though i do agree that is a dangerous blow to the wing theory however considering a balrog flight is quitew possible with wings thinking it through most biords ride on air current which has to do with hot air and such doesnt the bakrid provide its own rising heat to glide upon.

Scientificly speaking were looking at raptor like wings made for gliding not so much flapping which would make them more leathery and in fact thinner because there would be less need for muscle in the wing which in turn would make it easier for the wings to be folded into smaller area of space.

The thickness of the material is not so much the problem. It is the length of the wings that causes the issues. In fact, thinner wings would only compound the problem because the more easily the wings fold together the longer the wings will be vertically (making it harder to get through doors) rather than distributing some of the wings horizontally.

[Morsul the Dark]

Why would easier folding make them longer? thats a confusing argument the easier they fold they smaller space they would fold into...let me demonstrate take a piece of paper fold in in half its still pretty big fold it though four times when expanded same space when retracted smaller...i dont want to sound condesending it just the only way i could think of to explain my point....why would easier folding make them longer?

I mean even this is a possible(however much less likely) idea th4e fact that the balrogs smoke becomes wings...if they are indeed magical and can make weapons from fire(sword whip) whos to say they can't form wings with smoke? that way when not needed they disapate and voila wingless balrog like i said this second theory is less likely...much less likely

[Mister Underhill]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I've never seen a good response to these points. Usually when they are brought up the pro-wingers start humming and hawing and try to change the subject.

With all due respect, I've never been much impressed by these arguments. They rely on conjecture about so many things.

For starters, how can you draw anatomical conclusions regarding lift and mass about a creature that exudes flame and shadow, even if we did have anything more than the barest of hints as to its proportions (how tall is a "great height"?)?

The Chamber of Mazarbul is a "large" square chamber, with a "high" door opening off of a "wide" corridor. Clearly there's some room to work here. What do these adjectives mean? Any dimensions you produce are pure guesswork.

The Second Hall is "cavernous", but "loftier and far longer" than the one they slept in (which again is given no certain dimensions). Is it as wide as the original chamber? Less so? How wide is that? All guesswork.

Bottom line, this whole wing mass argument doesn't make me hum and haw, it makes me say: all pure speculation.

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Mister Underhill

With all due respect, I've never been much impressed by these arguments. They rely on conjecture about so many things.

For starters, how can you draw anatomical conclusions regarding lift and mass about a creature that exudes flame and shadow, even if we did have anything more than the barest of hints as to its proportions (how tall is a "great height"?)?

But it's fairly clear that Balrogs were incarnated and thus bound to physical laws. Is there suspicion that the physics of flight in Middle-earth may differ from those in the modern world?

The Chamber of Mazarbul is a "large" square chamber, with a "high" door opening off of a "wide" corridor. Clearly there's some room to work here. What do these adjectives mean? Any dimensions you produce are pure guesswork.

The Second Hall is "cavernous", but "loftier and far longer" than the one they slept in (which again is given no certain dimensions). Is it as wide as the original chamber? Less so? How wide is that? All guesswork.

The rebuttal to this line of reasoning that I have seen points to the definition of "chasm" which is described as "narrow." To be considered "narrow" it would need to be longer than it is wide, and we do have a figure for the span of the bridge, although I can't recall exactly what it is. 50 feet?

Bottom line, this whole wing mass argument doesn't make me hum and haw, it makes me say: all pure speculation.

You're right, but I think it's logical speculation.

Edit: Yeah, I'm not sure which dictionary qualifies chasms as narrow. Maybe it's a myth.

[Mister Underhill]

But it's fairly clear that Balrogs were incarnated and thus bound to physical laws. Is there suspicion that the physics of flight in Middle-earth may differ from those in the modern world?

I don't know. Has anyone ever done any calculations on what Smaug's wingspan would need to be? What are the physics of Legolas being able to walk on top of snow? I feel comfortable discarding these suppositions about Balrogs, especially when they proceed from such little starting information. How tall, exactly, is a Balrog? What does it weigh? What anatomical device allows it to exude flame and shadow? You can't start doing math on completely conjectural figures and convince anyone who has any kind of a textual commitment to the wings debate.

The rebuttal to this line of reasoning that I have seen points to the definition of "chasm" which is described as "narrow."

Hmm... just glanced over the passage -- the bridge is "narrow", but I don't see the adjective applied to the chasm. If I've missed it, I'm sure you'll provide the cite.

Besides, I think it's the walls of the Hall that the wings are spread to, not the sides of the chasm, however big it is (we don't know). There's no textual evidence here at all as far as I can see, and not even enough of a basis for logical supposition or inference.