3 + 9, x (7+12) Divided by Eleventy-one... oh dear

[the guy who be short]

Originally Posted by mark12_30

Generally speaking, I think Tolkien was more worried about the spirituality of his characters than the spirituality of the numbers he used. Since so many of his themes/ motifs are myth-based I would expect some of his number games to be myth based as well.

I would say his faith probably inpacted the numbers as well as myth. As davem later said, there is Christian symbology in some of the numbers.

the phantom - Erm. Well. You're probably picking up on the "luckiness" of seven that is very existant in the Western world and has been for centuries. Perhaps this luckiness originated from the Bible, but it is there... people think of "Lucky Seven" as the opposite of "Unlucky Thirteen."

Originally Posted by Shelob

But by dint of not holding any material specialness I think that 3 and 7 naturally take on a more spiritual significance.

Probably. Maybe that's why 7 is everywhere in the Bible? Oh, welcome back!

Originally Posted by davem

The number 'symbolism' in the story - the 'Numenorean' seven for instance, seems to have a meaning within the story & its there we should look for it, not in the Primary world.

But the significance would probably have a source in the Primary World, wouldn't it? Would Tolkien just pick a few numbers at random to be favoured in his world? I'd argue that he would have been influenced subconsciously, at the least, by the Primary world, and particularly from the two main influences of LotR - Religion and Myth.

Originally Posted by Lyta_Underhill

Also, the numbers 2,3,5 and 7 are prime numbers, meaning divisible only by the number itself and 1. Perhaps it is something in the non-reducibility of 3 and 7 that make them significant?

That's also very likely to be true. However, discussion seems to veering in the direction of "Why are particular numbers important in the Real World?" which, though it could have influenced Tolkien's use of numbers, isn't the point in question.


In any case, I believe the mystery of the Threes is solved. Three, as Joy said, is the number of Divine Perfection because of the Trinity.
The Three Silmarils are holy artefacts shining with the light of the trees.
The Three Houses of the Eldar - they accepted the summons of the Valar, thus entering the world of Eru.
The Three Houses of the Edain - by accepting the Eldar, they accept the Valar and Eru.
Three Unions of Elves and Men - The Perfect Number. There's something very holy about the Unions - they seem predestined by Eru to insert a strain of the Eldar into Men, thereby preserving them.

Those are the Definites. There are two more instances of Threes mentioned above.
The Three Elven Rings - I'm not entirely sure about these. The Three, in my eyes, represent the fall of the Eldar and their resistance to change - nothing holy there, quite the opposite.
The Three Sons of Finwe - Can be discounted as unimportant. They don't have the same significance as the rest of the above.

One question solved?

EDIT: A thought. Eru originally had the Elder Children and the Followers. The adoption of the Dwarves could then be seen as an act of completion - Eru accepts the Dwarves and thus has Three sets of Children (The Dwarves being a secondary creation, but still belonging and owing life to Eru). Perhaps the creation of the Dwarves and their adoption was pre-destined (I can't see Eru not knowing it would happen), thereby allowing the Valar to contribute to the Completion of the Children?