LotR -- Book 5 - Chapter 05 - The Ride of the Rohirrim

[davem]

Originally Posted by Bb

So, I wouldn't say the depiction of the Rohirrim is 'idealised' even by epic proportions. I think it represents in part a logical extension of some of the qualities in the earlier heroic literatures. It is a heavily nuanced depiction.

Well, I said they were 'idealised' in one sense - which I think they were, in that they are much closer to the 'Anglo-Saxons' of the epic tradition than the real Anglo-Saxons:

The Rohirrim are his 'fantasy' Anglo-Saxons, 'idealised' in one sense into a warrior elite, but certainly not 'idealised' in the moral sense.

I guess what I am trying to say is that, at the beginning of the interview I think the narrator's voice implies a Rohirrim attitude towards the Wild People, one of thinly veiled disgust or dislike, as if they aren't truly 'people'. But by the end of the passage I think the perspective has shifted to create a more sympathetic attitude towards Ghân.

It may simply be that we are seeing through Merry's eyes & it is his attitude that changes. We see a similar change happen in Sam when he encounters the fallen Easterling.

Of course, I could be all wet and wrong, but I sense that Tolkien was including here his thoughts about European attitudes towards 'the dark continent'. Or the Australian attitude towards the Aboriginal tribes there. Or the Native peoples--First Nations--in North America.

It may relate certainly to the way native Africans were treated, given Tolkien's country of birth. I also wonder whether the events on the continent at the time of writing may have played a part in his thinking as well. Ghan was a human being who was seen as little better (or perhaps even worse) than an animal - certainly the 'ethnic cleansing' suggestion is speculation on my part & came to me today - earlier I suggested the Rohirrim saw the Wild Men as 'beasts' to be hunted. I'm not sure which attitude is more appalling to the modern mind - if the Rohirrim thought if them as 'animals' to be hunted that could at least be put down to stupidity on their part. If it was 'ethnic cleansing' that more than borders on Fascism.

Tolkien felt that the Nazis had corrupted the 'noble Northern spirit' by their race doctrine & the attitudes & behaviour that resulted. I don't know if any of this feeling was in his mind as he wrote this chapter - a 'parable' for the Germans?

Of course, I'm pushing this too far - because its not how I usually approach the text now. What was in Tolkien's head, or may have been, is beyond me. Certainly, though, a reader may find a certain applicability to the situation at the time of writing. The episode is convincing within the context of the story, & doesn't require any 'outside' knowledge to make sense.

[Lalwendë]

Another take on this fascinating line of discussion...

I think it is all too easy to simply equate Rohirrim with Anglo-Saxons but what we have to remember is that the reality of Saxon England was both different and more complex. In practical terms there are major differences such as the Anglo-Saxons did not ride horses into battle. This was also the period when the Vikings were both invading and settling in the British Isles and the two cultures co-existed, and the older Romano-British people had not all been pushed to the fringes of the island as some were assimilated. In addition, the Scots and Welsh had their own cultures. I think the Rohirrim display more than just Anglo-Saxon traits, and we could say that all the cultures of Middle-earth to some extent represent aspects of the British people.

The Anglo-Saxons were certainly aggressive in conquering England to begin with, and though they did settle down very quickly, they still exploited those British people who were not on their side. One of the old words for Welshman also meant 'slave', and slavery was a major trade for these people. Perhaps the hunting of the Woses might echo this dark past of the English, hunting and trading their own neighbours.

Within the context of Middle-earth the idea that the Rohirrim were less than perfect does 'fit'. The Numenoreans themselves were less than perfect, landing on the coasts of Middle-earth and exploiting their fellow Men (which makes me wonder if millenia of resntment had built up in such peoples as the Corsairs and Haradrim against 'oppressive Numenoreans').

If there is a lesson in this, then perhaps Tolkien is showing how the Woses are dignified, and though they have been oppressed by the Rohirrim in the past, they are willing to help their distant kin. Whether this is the 'noble savage' concept I don't know, and likewise, I'm not certain if that concept is 'correct' in itself, but in any case, the Woses do teach the Rohirrim a valuable lesson.

[davem]

Co-incidentally, I just came across a piece in the latest Tolkien Studies. In the 1920's Tolkien translated a section of Gerald of Wales 'Description of Wales' (circa 1191) into Anglo-Saxon for a colleague at Leeds University. Just prior to that section are these words of Gerald's:

The English, I say, want to drive the Welsh out of the Island & capture it all for themselves. The Welsh, who for so long ruled over the whole kingdom, want only to find refuge together in the least attractive corner of it, the woods, the mountains & the marshes, to which they have been banished for their sins, so that there for a given time they may in want & poverty do penance for the excesses which they committed when they were prosperous.

I can't help wondering if Tolkien had this in the back of his mind...