Dwarves and Mordor

[Folwren]

Do I detect any sort of sarcasm there, Pio? Just out of curiosity, you know.

Minas Ithil and the Tower of Cirith Ungol were originally built by the Gondorians, I believe, but not because they lived in Morder, but because they didn't want anything getting out of Mordor...evil stuff I should imagine. Is that what you're refering to, Morsul?

- - Folwren

[Kuruharan]

There was no Mordor (as far as we can tell) in the First Age. In the Second Age Sauron set up shop there pretty early on. Well, okay, it took a thousand years, but still...

If anybody lived there it would probably have been tribes of primitive men who migrated in after Mordor was created. (And if they had any sense would have left when Sauron turned up. I wonder if they could have been the original slaves who worked Sauron's fields in Nurn...)

The dwarves mostly lived pretty far to the north. Durin's Folk lived in the Misty Mountains, the Grey Mountain, the Iron Hills, and maybe Erebor. This area would have provided them with plenty of exploitable resources for a long, long time (as it indeed did).

The Firebeards (Nogrod) and Broadbeams (Belegost) were probably spread up and down the Blue Mountains during the First Age. Not only did Mordor not exist but it was well beyond their range of activity. After the First Age their populations were probably shattered (the Firebeards certainly were) and the survivors probably remained in the traces of the Blue Mountains or went to Khazad-dum.

Nothing is know about the other dwarves except that they lived far to the east. I think it unlikely they had anything to do with the place.

I suppose houseless Elves might have passed through, but...

This may be another reason why Sauron liked the place. There weren't too many people there to bother him.

Shameless plug:

For more on the activities of the Longbeards click here.

[Gurthang]

Well, didn't Sauron have green fields and fair farms in the Eastern parts of his land? Around the Sea of Nurn? He did have to feed his armies after all. Which would make it seem that Mordor is not so bad a land at that, except for the fact of Mount Doom and it's ash ridden wastes. I would chance that, before Sauron came, there were Dwarves in some of those hills. But what became of their strongholds? What would their caverns become? If they had been made with the skill such as Moria was, perhaps they remain hidden still.

[Morsul the Dark]

Originally Posted by Folwren

Do I detect any sort of sarcasm there, Pio? Just out of curiosity, you know.

Minas Ithil and the Tower of Cirith Ungol were originally built by the Gondorians, I believe, but not because they lived in Morder, but because they didn't want anything getting out of Mordor...evil stuff I should imagine. Is that what you're refering to, Morsul?

- - Folwren

yes thats what I meant when the nunenorians built thos towers

Well, didn't Sauron have green fields and fair farms in the Eastern parts of his land? Around the Sea of Nurn? He did have to feed his armies after all. Which would make it seem that Mordor is not so bad a land at that, except for the fact of Mount Doom and it's ash ridden wastes. I would chance that, before Sauron came, there were Dwarves in some of those hills. But what became of their strongholds? What would their caverns become? If they had been made with the skill such as Moria was, perhaps they remain hidden still.

I was thinking the same thing because Gandalf meant to go to mordor afterall I just figured he may have known about one of these ancient dwarf realms

[Tuor in Gondolin]

On a bit of a tangent, any speculation as to what houses (or parts of them)
of the dwarves fought on the side of Sauron in the battle of the Last Alliance of men and elves, and why?

[alatar]

A real reach here, and done completely without access to source material, but by chance were the "swarthy men" who participated in the Siege of Minas Tirith (think that they had axes) a cross between between men and dwarves? Saruman was doing this with the orcs and men, and so would Sauron do something to produce a race of more controllable dwarves?

Just a thought.

[Kuruharan]

On a bit of a tangent, any speculation as to what houses (or parts of them)
of the dwarves fought on the side of Sauron in the battle of the Last Alliance of men and elves, and why?

If we go by the assumption that Tolkien listed his dwarves going west to east the Ironfists and Stiffbeards would have been closest to Mordor. The Blacklocks and Stonefoots were farther away.

Only the loosest of speculation is possible here.

Why they might have fallen into evil: Lack of an alternative. If you stop and think about it, there is a strong possibility that the dwarves were the only civilization(s) with a cultural basis for resisting Sauron. The tribes and nations of Men in the east tended to be those who had fallen under Morgoth's sway way back in the bad old days and stuck around. The elves were gone. Basically the dwarves seem to have been it. Cultural interaction will have its impact, and I doubt that the dwarves stayed away in the mountains and had no contact with others. Since the Ironfists and Stiffbeards were closer they might have had more contact with people under Sauron's sway. However, this is a wobbly supposition at best.

However, this is a very gray area because these Houses fought in the War of the Dwarves and Orcs against the orcs. But on the other hand, "bad dwarves" are spoken of as having made alliances with orcs. This obviously did not refer to the Longbeards nor to the Firebeards or Broadbeams. This may have something to do with Tolkien's earlier conceptions of the dwarves.

Hmmm...idea forming in brain...perhaps the dwarves in the eastern houses developed a mentality similar to that of Mim. Basically out for themselves more than anything else and willing to work for whoever offered them a better deal. Sauron offered some of them a better deal and they took him up on it.

A real reach here, and done completely without access to source material, but by chance were the "swarthy men" who participated in the Siege of Minas Tirith (think that they had axes) a cross between between men and dwarves? Saruman was doing this with the orcs and men, and so would Sauron do something to produce a race of more controllable dwarves?

It is hard to deny that this is possible.

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by Folwren

Do I detect any sort of sarcasm there, Pio? Just out of curiosity, you know.

Minas Ithil and the Tower of Cirith Ungol were originally built by the Gondorians, I believe, but not because they lived in Morder, but because they didn't want anything getting out of Mordor...evil stuff I should imagine. Is that what you're refering to, Morsul?

- - Folwren

I'm pretty sure Cirith Ungol was built to keep Mordor in check. If I'm not mistaken, it was a battle outpost.