Does LotR have cross-cultural appeal?

[Novnarwen]

By Davem

I meant that to me the settings - particularly the parts set in the Shire, & the Hobbits themselves seem so English that I've always been surprised that non-English readers can relate to them so deeply. When I read a book or watch a movie set in another country/culture there's always for me a feeling of 'distance' - sometimes very small, but there nonetheless

Davem, settings or story? In your first post you said that you were surprised, and found it odd, that Non-English speakers ’even got the story’. Now, you’re saying that you meant the ‘settings.’

Surely, the settings of a story is not what determines whether a person will ‘understand’ (or ‘get’) a story. The setting is but a small part of a book, and to be quite frank I believe that to understand or ‘get’ a story/book the subject plays a far greater part than the settings. And even though, settings may play a great part, why should we underestimate everyone who hasn’t grown up in green surroundings and think it odd and surprising that they ‘get the story’? Do you honestly think these people can’t picture a ‘green field,’ ‘a river,’ ‘tall trees’ and ‘forests’? (Tolkien uses these words, among others, in his descriptions in LoTR.) How hard can it be? Thank God for imagination, I say, for with these words they ought not to understand, get the story, or setting…

When it comes to the ‘story,’ (as you referred to in your first post) I can’t see what brilliance in Tolkien no one outside of England aren't supposed to understand. Short, it’s a story about good vs. evil. I don’t think I’m exaggerating that all books, (at least those I’ve read ,) is about this, one way or another. Why should people have difficulties understanding, or ‘getting the story’, when probably the greatest fraction of the books they’ve read too, deals with this subject? (By this, I would also claim, again, that LoTR has a cross-cultural appeal, because I see it as VERY likely that everyone who reads has touched upon the subject of LoTR many a times when reading, and I dare say that the subject itself hasn't stopped the majority from reading similar books.)

By Davem

For instance, I've grown up in an area parts of which are still reminiscent of the Shire - ''woods, fields, little rivers' - so I've been able to wander in places which strongly reminded me of the books, & I've encountered people very like the Hobbits. So I have that connection with the books that people living in a different landscape wouldn't have.

A question I have to ask is why you think it odd that people can still relate to Tolkien’s books so deeply when the settings are so ‘very English’. Again, I emphasize the importance of the subject of the books, rather than the settings. Additionally, has it occurred to you that people that find themselves in other landscapes than the ones described in LoTR can perhaps relate to everything else in Tolkien’s books such as personalities etc.?

It’s not odd that everyone who reads LoTR can relate as deeply to the books as you do. Personal interpretations again, I say. You let the settings enchant you to grow so deeply fond of Tolkien, but there are still many other elements in LoTR that can enchant others just as well. To me, the setting plays no great part in any of it. If Tolkien had chosen the Shire to be a desert, or to be an underwater realm, I would still find myself relating to the story, characters, personalities and events etc. just as deeply as I do now.

(I’ve started repeating myself, so I’ll stop.)

By HereIstarion

PS I promised not to evaluate, but based on my memory of once made 'Map of the Barrowdowns', there were no members from Muslim countries. But I know, based on first hand experience, that there are Tolkien lovers in Azerbaijan.

From this, I draw the conclusion that you can find yourself enchanted by LoTR, enjoy the story and belong to a culture or a religion that differ from English/European/Scandinavia, but don't hang around at BD. BD could be representative; it should also be questioned. There are Muslims in Europe and America, too, (According to a site here, 2% of Europe total population are Muslims) and excluding them as a group (as well as Buddhists and Hindus etc.) due to 'cultural and religious differences' sounds too simple.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Esty

I don't know of three translations in German, but I have looked briefly into both the old and new. The latter is rejected by many German fans because it doesn't do the spirit of the work justice, yet the former is a bit wooden. Quite frankly, since I read the original first, I can't get myself to settle for second or third best, so I don't read the translations.

The three translations mentioned in the articel are by Margaret Carroux (1969/70), Roswith Krege-Meyer (1991) & Wolfgang Krege (2000). According to the article the 'revised & corrected' translation (Krege-Meyer) was around for a while but is now out of print.

Originally Posted by Novnarwen

Davem, settings or story? In your first post you said that you were surprised, and found it odd, that Non-English speakers ’even got the story’. Now, you’re saying that you meant the ‘settings.’

I suppose I don't distinguish between settings & story - perhaps to me the setting is the story. the Legendarium is the story of Middle earth.

I am prepared to accept that I'm completely wrong about it, of course.....

[Mithalwen]

As for the settings, apart from the Shire I never felt them especially English and other than always identifying the New Forest where I grew up as Mirkwood, my strongest "this is middle earth" experiences overseas - albeit in anglophone countries. One was in Gippsland in Victoria, Australia, the other was watching dawn over the approaching Rockies. I felt like Bilbo seeing the Misty Mountains in the Hobbit.

[Lalwendë]

I'm certain that the whole subject of translation does have an important bearing on whether a book becomes popular worldwide. It may be that one country does not ahve access to good translations as H-I has said happened in Georgia while another country may be 'blessed' with particularly good versions. I would guess that many countries are just like the UK and that the majority of the population do not possess a decent enough knowledge of a foreign language to tackle a book as long and complex as LotR if it is not in their native tongue. So those people would rely on good translations.

I particularly love Goethe's Faust and I got hold of a very old copy in the original German to see if it was any better in the original; I took German up to the age of 18 but my knowledge was nowhere near good enough to tackle Faust. In addition, I have never used the language practically so I was unable to read it. In practical terms I can imagine it is much the same for other people wanting to read something 'in the original language'. I have known many people who have taught themselves English through sheer determination just to read a book or enjoy pop music better (I even know one woman who learned English via MTV - the mind boggles) but it does take a huge amount of effort and possibly natural talent, sadly.

Considering those who are English speaking but from different cultural backgrounds, there could be other factors to take into consideration. Maybe there are a lot of Tolkien fans who are from different backgrounds, but it might simply be that they do not use forums such as this. In my experience, not many British people of Asian descent use internet forums (at least not the ones I use, and they are not all specialised like this), but I think this may have a lot to do with the 'digital divide' and the lack of opportunity to get access to the net.

One thing that does interest me is whether people from different backgrounds/ages get different things from the story, e.g. do they enjoy it as a simple adventure, do they appreciate the action more than the description, and so on? Is there something about your personality (as oppsed to your background) that might 'pre-dispose' you to be a Rings fan?

[Formendacil]

Hmm... countryside...

I think that people tend to associate what they know with what they read. As an Alberta boy, my visions of the Misty Mountains are inevitably coloured by the Rockies. Mirkwood becomes BC. Lorien becomes the Edmonton-area parkland. The plains of Rohan become Saskatchewan. Anduin becomes the Red Deer River..

And so on...

But with things like the Shire, where the description is of a general countryside with which I am unfamiliar, of small hills and farms, and trees like oaks, I am admittedly at a loss. I imagine that if I ever visited rural England, I would be able to see it a lot more clearly.

[The Saucepan Man]

Some great responses. Thank you to all who have contributed.

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

I wonder if book sales info is available for various countries, both for English and translated forms.

I wondered that too, as I tend to agree that merely going by Barrow-Downs membership is unlikely to be the most accurate of indicators, given language issues. I tried Googling, but found little of use. Nevertheless, I do have a hunch that Tolkien’s works are more widely read in what might broadly be described as the “west” than elsewhere.

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

One point to be considered about the books is the quality of the translation into other languages. We have Tolkien's thoughts on various translations, but if the books aren't 'page turners' in a person's native language, they won't attract many readers.

A good point. Although the problems that have been referred to with, for example, the German translations do not seem to have affected its popularity in Germany. Then again, English is commonly spoken to a high standard in many parts of Germany and the same applies, I believe, with regard to the Netherlands and the Scandinavian countries. And, while the same might be said of France and (to a lesser extent) Spain and Italy, I guess the “own language preference” point explains the lack of Downers from these countries.

I would expect the language barrier to be the greatest obstacle where an entirely different alphabet is used. That will certainly be an issue in most Islamic and Far Eastern countries. However, the Russian alphabet is unique and, as HI has indicated, Tolkien has (or at least had) quite a following in Russia, so I think that there is more to it than this. It seems to me that the culture of many parts of Russia and also many of the former soviet states (Ukraine, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia for example) have much in common with Europe when it comes to matters such as mythology, history and faith. Moreso, for example, than countries like China or Saudi Arabia.

Originally Posted by the guy who be short

But then, consider literacy rates elsewhere too. People in large parts of the foreign world simply don't have the chance to learn to read, yet alone read Tolkien.

Fair point, although I was more thinking in terms of those from different (ie non-“western”) cultures who are literate and who do have access, one way or another, to Tolkien’s works. Do the books hold as much appeal to them as they do for those from, or who are aqcuainted with, “western” cultures?

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Culture...

That is an interesting term.

Originally Posted by the guy who be short

I think we should probably consider nationality as well as ethnicity if we're going to be discussing the appeal Tolkien has.

I agree that “culture” is a difficult concept to define in this context. My Compact Oxford English Dictionary defines it as:

… the customs, institutions and achievements of a particular nation, people or group.

When considering the appeal of Tolkien to different cultures, it seems to me that we should focus on the belief system, history, mythology and traditions of those cultures. So, for example, the Rohirrim will seem rather familiar to those who are acquainted with pre-medieval European history. But would they seem as familiar to someone from China, or to an Australian Aborigine? Their history and cultural roots are not the same. Similarly, Goblins and Trolls are creatures from European mythology, albeit interpreted by Tolkien. Perhaps, through translation, the equivalent creatures from other mythologies may be co-opted into the story, but then will readers be seeing something different?

Of course, as a result of the migration of peoples that has taken place throughout history, cultures will transcend national boundaries and ethnicity, and will become blurred. Indeed, as davem points out, one of Tolkien’s stated intentions in writing LotR and his other works, was to provide a mythology for England which he felt to be lacking. But the mythological roots of the legendarium remain very much rooted in European tradition.

Originally Posted by the guy who be short

But considering that ethnicity doesn't really affect anything about a person … I don't see any importance there.

Yes. I would agree with you there. Ethnicity, in terms of racial stock, is certainly not the same thing as culture and, while ethnic origin may be an indicator of culture, it is not in itself a factor in determining whether a book based upon a certain cultural tradition will have any particular appeal to a person. Ethnicity, therefore, is perhaps rather a red herring.

Originally Posted by the guy who be short

I was born into a Hindu family, but living in Britain I also have a firm knowledge of Christianity. I can only presume my love of Tolkien would still exist, were that not the case. I am an atheist, and I know LotR appeals to a lot of atheists and agnostics as well as to Christians and Jews.

I agree. I would describe myself as an agnostic, and this has not affected my appreciation of LotR. Indeed, until recently, I was unaware of Tolkien’s faith and did not pick up on the religious undertones in his works at all. Having said that, I am familiar with Christian ideals and so perhaps there was a degree of connection there, even though I did not appreciate it at the time.

Then again, the kinds of concepts which LotR espouses – its morality, if you like – are not exclusive to Christianity. Do these shared concepts appeal to those of other faiths, even though the “trappings” within which they are presented are Christian in origin?

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I know Japanese Tolkien addicts from other sites ...

I find that interesting, given that Japan has a very distinctive cultural tradition. What is it in Tolkien’s works, I wonder, that appeals to Japanese fans? Do they see it differently to “westerners”, ie as interpreted by reference to their own mythological and cultural traditions, or do they see it as a story based upon a different culture, but one which nonetheless contains messages with which they can identify? Difficult to generalise, I know. But it would be interesting to know how the book “translates” to different cultures (in the minds of readers, rather than on the page). Does the imagery of the films, while familiar to most European/North American fans, seem slightly alien to those from other cultural traditions?

Originally Posted by Lyta_Underhill

So the story can be cast in different ways, according to the tenets of the culture. I'd think any story must gain and lose meanings in translation, though, for the very reason of cultural and expressive differences...

I tend to agree with that although, while the style of translation on the page may have a bearing, I do think that it is perhaps more a matter of translation in the mind of the reader.

Originally Posted by davem

I've always been slightly surprised that non-English readers even get the story, as its always seemed so very English to me. A pleasant surprise, of course, but odd, to me, nonetheless....

Originally Posted by davem

I meant that to me the settings - particularly the parts set in the Shire, & the Hobbits themselves seem so English that I've always been surprised that non-English readers can relate to them so deeply.

It does not surprise me that non-English readers can relate to the visual backdrop to the story since, while the Shire might be very much grounded in the English countryside, the plains of Rohan, the peaks of the Misty Mountains and the depths of Moria will be recognisable to those from many other countries. So, it is not so much the landscape of Middle-earth which I suspect may be unfamiliar to some readers from different cultures, but rather the depiction of its peoples and their traditions. From Hobbits to Dwarves, from Elves to Ents and from Gondorians to Rohirrim, their depiction is unambiguously European.

Originally Posted by HerenIstarion

I ascribe to this very translation (it being the first as well) the popularity Tolkien has in Russia. It subsided of late, but there certainly was a phenomenon known as 'Tolkien craze', which burst out (and was mainly manned with young people - teenagers main part, but up to people in their 'late tweens') by the end of 80s, following publication of 'short version' translation of LoTR in 1982 and first full translation in 1988.

Thank you, HI, for your excellent description of the “Tolkien craze” in Russia. I would be interested to know whether it gained a greater following amongst the Slavic peoples of Russia than amongst those from the Muslim and other cultural traditions. Would you be able to shed any light on that? You indicate that the books have a following in Azerbaijan, which would suggests that it does have some following amongst Muslim peoples. But could the same be said with regard to Iran or Saudi Arabia, I wonder.

Further thoughts, anyone?

[Encaitare]

Originally Posted by SpM

I would describe myself as an agnostic, and this has not affected my appreciation of LotR. Indeed, until recently, I was unaware of Tolkien’s faith and did not pick up on the religious undertones in his works at all. Having said that, I am familiar with Christian ideals and so perhaps there was a degree of connection there, even though I did not appreciate it at the time.

When I read, I tend to separate my mindset from that of the so-called real world without even realizing it. And not having a Christian view from the beginning, I never made any kind of connection in that sense. Of course, I read at the beginning of FotR that LotR is a "fundamentally Christian work," but that had little effect on my reading. I generally accept books as their own little contained worlds, just appreciating the stories in and of themselves, and it's not until I have read them several times over that I begin to make deeper sorts of connections. It was this forum that actually alerted me to the actual depth of LotR. But even knowing about the presence of this "applicability," it doesn't overwhelm me when I read; it usually doesn't cross my mind. The few exceptions are where there is supposed to be intervention from Eru, which I originally interpreted as pure chance, ie: 'There goes Gollum... it would have done Sauron some good if he'd installed guard rails in Sammath Naur.'

Religion doesn't define one's ability to enjoy LotR, and I think the same goes for geography too. I've never seen anywhere like the Shire with my own eyes (or hendu, for my fellow Quenya students ), but I can certainly imagine it. And there are other parts of Middle-earth that I can relate to familiar places. The Misty Mountains could easily be the Adirondacks; Fangorn is any dark and looming wood. I think everyone can associate something they know with somewhere (or even someone) in LotR. And, there are many ideas and ideals presented in LotR that are nearly universal: loyalty, friendship, courage, mercy, love. As long as people hold these as positive ideals, there will be appreciation for the book.