Gothmog: the poll

[Formendacil]

"THE" Lieutenant of Morgul... not "A" lieutenant of Morgul. And as for the pertinent quote, from the great book itself, it has already been posted on this thread.

Gothmog the lieutenant of Morgul had flung them into the fray; Easterlings with axes, and Variags of Khand, Southrons in scarlet and out of Far Harad black men like half-trolls

[CaptainofDespair]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

"THE" Lieutenant of Morgul... not "A" lieutenant of Morgul. And as for the pertinent quote, from the great book itself, it has already been posted on this thread.

'The' can be loosely put either way. He was 'The' Lieutenant of Morgul 'at' Pelennor. Or, it could be taken strictly. I take no preference. However, again with the quote, he only rallied men (whom I bunch together under the category 'Easterlings', as my book only says Easterlings, oddly enough. Mine says something to the effect of 'Bearded Easterlings with Great Axes', and only that). A mighty captain of the fallen Wiki should have been able to rally the Orcs as well. He did not. He could not. A mighty Nazgul whom, if Sauron would have wanted to win the battle despite the losses, would have infused him with his power, if he had not already done so. But, alas, he was not infused with any such power, and nor did he rally the fodder that was the Orcs. The Nazgul are the most feared minions of the Dark Lord, and are basically extensions of him, and would thus be able to rally such lowly peons as the Orcs.

I've always pondered one thing though...

Could Gothmog be a more 'Mannish' reincarnation of the spirit of the original Gothmog, Lord of Balrogs? Yes, I know that sounds silly...

Note: I did not find mention of this in this particular thread, so I may have skipped something. If so, disregard the comment.

[Morsul the Dark]

Well remember Tolkien love balance(cant think of the word right now) The good guys had Gandalf and Radagast... the Bad guys had Saruman and...perhaps another maiar this Balrog COmmander Reincarnation Afterall Morgoth certainly could have done this. That too is plausible..but then again Sauron may be considered the second evil maiar in which case it makes the reincarnation less likely...Ithink the nazgul idea is sufficient remember anyone could become one he may have been turning into one like early stages afterall if he were evil unlike Frodo he would accept this as a gift rather than struggle against the wound.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Morsul the Dark

Well remember Tolkien love balance(cant think of the word right now)

He did? I've never noticed any such trend... Morgoth was originally way stronger than Manwe- he was a match for ALL the Valar. Alone. Who balances Sauron then?

Originally Posted by Morsul the Dark

The good guys had Gandalf and Radagast... the Bad guys had Saruman and...perhaps another maiar this Balrog COmmander Reincarnation Afterall Morgoth certainly could have done this. That too is plausible..but then again Sauron may be considered the second evil maiar in which case it makes the reincarnation less likely...

If there was a Maia in Sauron's ranks, then why was he the LIEUTANENT. If there was a Maia serving him, I rather doubt that the Witchking would be his superior, but, rather, his deputy.

Originally Posted by Morsul the Dark

I think the nazgul idea is sufficient remember anyone could become one he may have been turning into one like early stages afterall if he were evil unlike Frodo he would accept this as a gift rather than struggle against the wound.

Good.

Originally Posted by CaptainofDespair

'The' can be loosely put either way. He was 'The' Lieutenant of Morgul 'at' Pelennor. Or, it could be taken strictly. I take no preference. However, again with the quote, he only rallied men (whom I bunch together under the category 'Easterlings', as my book only says Easterlings, oddly enough. Mine says something to the effect of 'Bearded Easterlings with Great Axes', and only that).

Then Gothmog is 'the' "Lieutenant Nazgul of Morgul placed in Command at the Pelennor".

And, regarding your different book wording, I have to wonder if you don't have a First Edition...

But I do not know all those differences, so I won't commit to that explanation by any means.

[The Saucepan Man]

Well, since Tolkien never gave us a definitive answer (absent any undiscovered manuscripts), I would say that Gothmog could be any of the three. It's down to the reader.

On that basis, my vote is for Nazgul since, in an old War of the Ring game that I have, he is depicted as one. And so, I have considered him to be a Nazgul for some 25 years and I am not about to change my mind now.

But even applying logic to the situation, my answer holds. I would expect the second-in-command at Minas Morgul and in the assault on Gondor to be of similar power to the commander (ie the Witch-King). Khamul, as the Lieutenant of Dol Goldur, was almost certainly directing the assaults on Lorien, the second of which occured on the same day as the Battle of the Pelennor. I would therefore conclude that the Witch-King's second-in-command was one of the other Nazgul.

[Eönwë]

How about a Nazgul who is a Black Numenorean as well?