Gothmog: the poll

[solarisa]

gothmog...the crazed i-am-the-real-dark-lord evil (and incredibly ugly) HOBBIT!!! sorry sort of a joke please just ignore me

[Alcarillo]

I've always imagined Gothmog as some sort of man, so I'm voting for Black Numenorean. Pretty much all evidence in favor of this has been said, I think. CaptainofDespair and TGWBS have good points on this. I think the only thing we all can agree on is that he was not an orc.

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

I haven't voted yet so let's see if I can organize my thoughts while I write and come into some proper conclusion. On the first time I read LotR Gothmog was an orc to me. I didn't really think if it was logical because I like to read the books as a story not an encyclopedia. Besides, I think Gothmog sounds very orcish. At least it doesn't sound like a name of a Ringwraith. However, after doing a little brainwork I don't believe that he was an orc.

Do you know what was a Lieutenant's place in historical battles? Was he at the front marching with the troops or was it possible that he came to the battlefield some other way (here: flying a Fell beast)? I don't know how much we can trust Frodo's observations of just one Nazgul. He fell asleep or passed out while Morgul's host was crossing a bridge. Before it Frodo seemed to be so caught in the fear of failing that I don't know if he had noticed if there had been two Nazguls instead of one.

Originally Posted by RotK, The Siege of Gondor

It was no brigand or orc-chieftain that ordered the assault upon Lord of Mordor's greatest foe.

Does this mean that usually there could have been just some extra ugly and nasty orc or man leading a charge against an enemy?

But later on almost the same sentence is repeated.

Originally Posted by Rotk, The Battle of Pelennor Fields

But it was no orc-chieftain or brigand that led the assault upon Gondor.

It is clear that this is a very important battle. Losing isn't an option. I doubt that Sauron would have trusted an orc or ordinary man to be Witch King's substitute. Of course Sauron didn't think that anything would happen to WK but still.

Originally Posted by The Battle of Pelennor Fields

Gothmog the lieutenant of Morgul had flung them into the fray; Easterlings with axes, and Variags of Khand, Southrons in scarlet and out of Far Harad black men like half-trolls

Gothmog leads men. I don't think men would take orders from an orc. It seems natural that a man, a Black Numenorean if you like, would command them. Also, I think that Tolkien would have mentioned if Gothmog was a Nazgul. Like SoN said:

Never was Gothmog described in the way of the other Nazgul (striking fear into the heart of his enemies, etc.)

I'm going to vote for Black Numenorean.

[Saurreg]

Originally Posted by dancing spawn of ungoliant

Do you know what was a Lieutenant's place in historical battles? Was he at the front marching with the troops or was it possible that he came to the battlefield some other way (here: flying a Fell beast)?

A lieutenant was traditionally the deputy of the commander in chief. So say if Bedford was commander in chief of the English, his main lieutenants would have been Salisbury and Warwick - individual army leaders themselves with their own entourages and aides. Similarly a commander of a contingent of the main army would have been the lieutenant to the commander of that army.

The lieutenant would have worked in a myriad of ways depending on the needs of the day.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

How did Frodo (or whoever told him about Gothmog) come to know the name of the lieutenant?

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

How did Frodo (or whoever told him about Gothmog) come to know the name of the lieutenant?

Translator Conceit.

RE: Lieutenants

A lieutenant refers either to a military deputy or to the lowest rank of commissioned army officer. Since the second is clearly not the case, the "Lieutenant of Morgul" means that Gothmog is the deputy commander of Morgul- the Witchking's right hand man.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

So maybe it is all lies. Or maybe Aragorn was actually quite friendly with one Southron and managed to get his name into the history books as a mighty captain.

[CaptainofDespair]

Yes, but there are possibly several Lieutenants of Morgul. Why would there be only one? And, why would a Commander like the Wiki take his best sub-commander? He had no reason to believe he would fall, being empowered by Sauron's magic. So, the Wiki would take one of his lessers, as a back-up. His chief lieutenant of the citadel might be preparing a second wave (as we all should know, orcs lose troops by the thousands at any given time, and thus it would be wise to have a fit commander to come forward after Pelennor to both mop up, and continue the rampant slaughter that would carry into Rohan and Eriador).

I also don't trust Encyclopedia of Arda's claims that Gothmog was the second-in-command of Morgul, as it says something which I believe is a fallacy. TGWBS posted this from Arda:

As second-in-command to the Lord of the Nazgûl himself, he clearly had very great authority over Sauron's forces

. If Gothmog had such great power, he would have kept the Orcs from fleeing, if he was indeed a Nazgul. But, he only was able to muster the Easterlings. Why only them?