LotR -- Book 5 - Chapter 05 - The Ride of the Rohirrim

[Aldarion Elf-Friend]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

Do the descriptions of "joy of battle" and singing that was "fair and terrible" strike you as paradox?

I think that the idea of "joy of battle" is not unrelated to the very real phenomonon of "blood lust" that still occurs in the heat of battle to this day. I have not personally fought in a war, but have listened to those who have. They say that in the middle of a firefight, especially when your side is winning, men can lose control of their faculties (become fey, if you will) and essentially go on an unstoppable killing spree that doesn't end until all their enemies (and occasionally some friends) are dead. From what I understand, there is an aspect of "positive" emotion in this, or at least "feel-good" emotion. Thus, "joy" of battle.

What think ye?

[Firefoot]

I'm really surprised that this chapter is getting so few responses, after how many people said they were looking forward to it.

Maybe it's because this chapter is so amazing by itself that people don't want to break the enchantment by over-analyzing?

Well, a final comment from me, since I didn't have time last time when I posted:

Suddenly the king cried to Snowmane and the horse sprang away. Behind him his banner blew in the wind, white horse upon a field of green, but he outpaced it. After him thundered the knights of his house, but he was ever before them. Eomer rode there ,the white horsetail on his helm floating in his speed, and the fron of the first eored roared like a breaker foaming to the shore, but Theoden could not be overtaken.

This description has always awed me; it has been one of the few that I have always been able to picture in my head (even before the movies), which is neat for me since the words tend to be my picture rather than actually imagining the events. But I think this description, as well as the rest of the charge, which I never really took so much note of until this reading, is amazing. The part about the possible defeat and turning around before even trying to fight, then charging anyway was beautiful.

[Evisse the Blue]

As I sadly don't have the book with me at this point, I will only speak about the scene that is most vivid in my mind, that is of course, the final one of the chapter.

The mood that grips the Rohirrim at this stage is similar to the so called 'beserk' mood that the Viking warriors used to indulge in at times, although Tolkien thankfully lacks in gruesome detail in favour of an epic big picture. The so called 'beserker warriors' dressed in animal skins and caught in the battle frenzy commited various acts of cruelty like ripping limbs off with bare hands. They became legendary and their behaviour made them very frightening to their enemies. I think this is also what Aldarion was referring to as 'blood lust' (correct me if you has something else in mind).

These things are inside them, as they were inside their ancestors.

Yes, and this also fits with Tolkien's obvious inspiration from Anglo-Saxon culture for the Rohirrim. He greatly admired their culture and way of life, and he preferred their simplicity to the evolution brought on by Norman conquest.

This battle scene, does seem to be as Estelyn put it quite the paradox. I'd even be so bold to say it's a paradox when it comes to the feelings it awakens in the reader. We are moved, in spite of ourselves, in spite of us thinking of ourselves as civilised people not delighting in battle and slaughter :P. But in the end, what moves us are words, polished words, poetry, as Davem brilliantly points out. I doubt many of us would be moved by it were we to be there at the centre of blood and gore. But I think a storyteller's aim is not to make us feel what we would if we were there ourselves, but to make us feel like the central characters of the story, like Theoden, Eomer, Eowyn, and the other Rohirrim that stood on that hill and watched Minas Tirith overcome with enemies. And if we, while reading it, feel a bit of their cold fury and grim pleasure in the destruction of evil, then Tolkien has proven his genius once more. And we have once more proven to ourselves our ability to immerse completely into a well written book and come out a little richer in feelings.
I think it would be dumb to generalize from here and say that battles are glorified, or even worse, to use such scenes as an attempt to justify modern day wars, which habit frankly disgusts me. Sorry for the brief slip into subjective mode.

As for the singing....I think I have a pretty good idea what Theoden and his men were singing as they rode into Gondor. Has anyone heard the Italian power metal band Rhapsody? They have a couple of really epic songs that echo LOTR to me, and the song 'Knightrider of Doom' reminds me very powerfully of the ride of the Rohirrim. I'll quote the chorus here to give you a taste of it:
'In this blood red dawn / I will wash my soul to call the spirit of vengeance / To deny my wisdom for anger/ To break the scream of the silent foe and be a Knightrider of Doom."
Give this song a listen if you're open to new experiences .

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

I've been reading and rereading the chapter for quite some time now, and I have been unable to get anything from it ( Firefoot), except this: The three chapters involving the actual Ride of the Rohirrim (including the last section of the chapter before it, and the first section of the one after it) has always moved me to tears, ever since I first read them (on the first week of January, 2003). Something here stirs me, though I don't know what.

Just yesterday, I decided to drop the book (and the analysis of the actual text), and decided to look into me: What does it move? Where does it touch me?

I came up with this.

If The Two Towers is a book about overcoming mistrust, then The Return of the King is about friendship--in its truest form, the "lay down his life for his friends" type. The Rohirrim and Sam knows this type of love, and it moves them:

[Sam: ]I'll get [to Mt. Doom], if I leave everything but my bones behind. And I'll carry Mr. Frodo up myself, if it breaks my back and heart. So stop arguing!

LR VI 3

"Alas!" said Théoden. "Then Denethor has heard no news of our riding and will despair of our coming."
"Need brooks no delay, yet late is better than never," said Éomer. "And mayhap in this time shall the old saw be proved truer than ever before since men spoke with mouth."

LR V 5

I have also been reading UT III 2: The Chronicles and Cirion and Eorl (as support material for my aborted analysis), and I came across this:

. . . Cirion and Eorl were moved . . . by the great friendship that bound their people together, and by the love that was between them as true men.

UT III 3 iii

So, these two (the Dúnedain and the Rohirrim) have been bound by friendship ever since way back! Now I wonder, what happened to the Gondorians? Why did they despair? Did they really think that the Rohirrim would forsake them?

Of course, for a while, that thought entered Théoden:

A smell of burning was in the air and a very shadow of death. The horses were uneasy. But the king sat upon Snowmane, motionless, gazing upon the agony of Minas Tirith, as if stricken suddenly by anguish, or by dread. He seemed to shrink down, cowed by age. Merry himself felt as if a great weight of horror and doubt had settled on him. His heart beat slowly. Time seemed poised in uncertainty. They were too late! Too late was worse than never! Perhaps Théoden would quail, bow his old head, turn, slink away to hide in the hills.

LR V 5

Why did he not turn back? Hope?

Then suddenly Merry felt it at last, beyond doubt: a change. Wind was in his face! Light was glimmering. Far, far away, in the South the clouds could be dimly seen as remote grey shapes, rolling up, drifting: morning lay beyond them.

ibid

Or was it because his friend was in danger?

But at that same moment there was a flash, as if lightning had sprung from the earth beneath the City. For a searing second it stood dazzling far off in black and white, its topmost tower like a glittering needle: and then as the darkness closed again there came rolling over the fields a great boom.

ibid

So I guess that was what moves me: A friendship, tested by trials, is proven true.

[Lhunardawen]

Firefoot: You're most probably right. This chapter is just so beautifully poignant that over-analysis can ruin its magic.

And you've just done an over-analysis of the text, kiddo.



The first thing that struck me here is Merry's selflessness.

Poor Pippin, shut up in the great city of stone, lonely and afraid. Merry wished he was a tall Rider like Éomer and could blow a horn or something and go galloping to his rescue.

I'm quite sure a lot of kids have wished they could be something, but mostly for their own benefit. Merry here mirrors the sentiment of a child who wishes to be like someone else - someone he obviously admires though not explicitly stated - not so he could have renown and glory, but to save his friend. How swoon-worthy is that? Not again...

I have to admit I have never exactly been a fan of the Wild Men. Sure, I appreciated all their help, but I did not find them very much worthy of attention. After reading the chapter again, I finally found why you people hold them in such high esteem. But I noted a difference between them ('fauna') and the Ents ('flora'). The Ents had a direct participation in the War by attacking Isengard, while the Wild Men refused to do any such thing. Is this due to a certain degree of bitterness they felt towards the Men? (I would say that this same feeling of bitterness had a part in driving the Ents to fight Saruman.) Or does it have something to do with the nature of their people?

Again, the Wild Men are also a bit reminiscent of the Dead. It was Aragorn, heir to the throne of Gondor, who summoned the Dead - who themselves were once Men, but now bereft of restful peace and dignity. They were recalled on oath, and unless they fulfill it the peace they desire would continually elude them, which is possibly why they finally came when Aragorn summoned them.

The Wild Men, on the other hand, were under no oath; in a sense, they are a free people, having no imposed ties with anyone else. How they came to meet with Theoden and the Rohirrim I haven't found in the book, but they seem to be creatures feared yet hunted. The Rohirrim asked for their help, which they have freely given (though not in the way the Horsemen requested), and were willing to be killed if they failed. (Does this constitute an oath?) They expressed intense hatred towards Orcs, a reason for them to agree to help. But in one sense they also have this similarity with the Dead:

'Then you will kill gorgûn and drive away bad dark with bright iron, and Wild Men can go back to sleep in the wild woods.' (Ghân-buri-Ghân) (italics mine)

Finally, this chapter (in some way) foretells the manner of Sauron's downfall:

'Even in this gloom hope gleams again. Our Enemy's devices oft serve us in his despite. The accursed darkness itself has been a cloak to us.' (Éomer)

And later:

But the mind and will of the Black Captain were bent wholly on the falling city, and as yet no tidings came to him warning that his designs held any flaw.

Like unto the master is the servant, eh? (Many thanks to Nilp for that. )

[davem]

Originally Posted by Lhunardawen

The Rohirrim asked for their help, which they have freely given (though not in the way the Horsemen requested), and were willing to be killed if they failed.

This is not my reading of the situation. If we look at what Ghan-buri-ghan actually says:

'Dead men are not friends to living men, and give them no gifts,' said the Wild Man. 'But if you live after the Darkness, then leave Wild Men alone in the woods and do not hunt them like beasts any more. Ghan-buri-Ghan will not lead you into trap. He will go himself with father of Horse-men, and if he leads you wrong, you will kill him.'

what comes across is that the Wild Men are not giving their help freely, but rather because they've been hunted by the Rohirrim (possibly, for all we know, to the point of near extinction). When Ghan says 'if he leads you wrong, you will kill him.' I don't think he's freely offering his life as a pledge of his faithfulness, but simply stating a fact, based on his experience of the Rohirrim he & his people have encountered. He's saying 'I know you bloodthirsty horselords, you killers of my kin. If you hunt & kill us for no reason at the best of times, then I know for certain that if I mislead you now you'll kill me. I'll help you but please stop killing us.'

Basically, he's smart enough to know that there's no hope of survival if the orcs win, & little more if the Rohirrim win, but he's doing what he can for his people.

[Lhunardawen]

But what of Théoden's response, "So be it!"?