Greasy, Grimy, Grima Hair...

[Nimrodel_9]

I was just watching TTT yesterday when I noticed something a bit odd. Correct me if I am wrong, but Grima Wormtongue was a man of Rohan, right? Then why do you think PJ chose Brad Dourif who is not very tall, and gave him a black wig? The men of Rohan were said to be taller than mortal men and with golden hair. Grima dosen't quite fit this desription. I checked the book and couldn't find a description of him that said how tall he was or what color his hair was, so I am just going off the movies. So my question is: Why? Perhaps he is a move-in to Rohan, from Gondor or somewhere. What are your thoughts?

[Cailín]

I think Peter Jackson wanted him to look like the slimy little coward he pictured him to be?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

As this is a movie topic, I'm moving the thread to the Movies forum. Please continue reading and posting there - thanks!

[Kitanna]

If Grima looked like a normal Rohan man (such as Eomer or Theoden) I'd have a hard time accepting that. I always thought of Grima as a slimy little worm and PJ's Grima looked like a slimy little worm.
Of course he could still have been that worm with blond hair, but him being short...well he's not really. He seems to be average height and sometimes he looks like he's walking hunched over. Grima's walk of cowardice.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Nimrodel_9

I was just watching TTT yesterday when I noticed something a bit odd. Correct me if I am wrong, but Grima Wormtongue was a man of Rohan, right? Then why do you think PJ chose Brad Dourif who is not very tall, and gave him a black wig? The men of Rohan were said to be taller than mortal men and with golden hair. Grima dosen't quite fit this desription. I checked the book and couldn't find a description of him that said how tall he was or what color his hair was, so I am just going off the movies. So my question is: Why? Perhaps he is a move-in to Rohan, from Gondor or somewhere. What are your thoughts?

Well it has to be said that they took a fair bit of licence with the appearance of some of the characters but I don't have a major issue with Grima since .. whatever he looks like he "is" Grima in the same way that Viggo Mortensen became Aragorn when at 5"11 he is only just over average height, when Aragorn is always described as being particularly tall. The gondorians were generally of medium complexion, not dark haired with light hair and eyes. They were consistent with each other if not the book so I guess that was a casting decision! Also all the Hobbits were rather lean..... and Frodo about half the age compared to the book..... On the whole I would take good acting over appearance ......

To get back to Grima, height is often assciated with "goodness". The heros are usually notably tall (yes I know the main heros are hobbits but all things are relative!), Elendil was "the tall", Galadriel the tallest of all Elf women, Eomer is the tallest of his riders, Faramir is the tallest of his Rangers, The tallness of the men of Dol Amroth and their prince are noted. When Elrond, Glorfindel and Gandalf are described there is the suggestion that his wisdom makes up for his lesser stature. Maybe by having Grima as a shorter man he is seen to be literally aswell as metaphorically low...

[Nimrodel_9]

If Grima looked like a normal Rohan man (such as Eomer or Theoden) I'd have a hard time accepting that.

I kinda thought that, too.

I was just curious about why he dosen't look like other men in Rohan. I wasn't really concerned about the height, just his appearance. Not much is said about Wormtongue, but does anyone know where he came from? What his real origination is?

Nim

[THE Ka]

I think it was possibly meant as a contrast to other residents of Rohan. To somehow make Grima look suspiciously out of place and a loner. On the majority, you have a bunch of buff, golden haired and tall, striking Rohan natives, and then you have Grima... Not so tall, doesn't glow as much as others, dark-haired and unkempt.

In the movie, you most likely would not be able to spot Grima if he looked similar to everyone else, unless someone said his name. His character was displayed differently for you to immediately go: "Hey! Look at that guy! I wonder what he's up to..."

I feel sorry for him... Poor creature.


~ Ka

[THE Ka]

Originally Posted by Nimrodel_9

I kinda thought that, too.

I was just curious about why he dosen't look like other men in Rohan. I wasn't really concerned about the height, just his appearance. Not much is said about Wormtongue, but does anyone know where he came from? What his real origination is?

Nim

All that really is known is his father was a counsellor as well, named Gálmód and we only know this because Gandalf mentions this. Tolkien only ever mentions him once, and then only in passing, so almost nothing is known about him. His name seems to derive from the Old English for 'lewd' or 'wanton'. Seems to run in the family I guess...

~ Ka

[Lalwendë]

At his feet upon the steps sat a wizened figure of a man, with a pale wise face and heavy-lidded eyes.

This all I can find initially about his appearance. It doesn't say anything about him being dark haired so I think they were able to use their imagination a little when casting/dressing Grima. That they chose to have him as a dark haired but pale skinned man plays on established figures of fear in films - the established idea of a hero in a film does not look like Grima (let me pause here and say Hurrah for Tim Burton and Edward Scissorhands... ).

But it is possible that 'book' Grima may have looked like that anyway; perhaps if he was slightly 'different' to the other men in Rohan it might explain why he sought to be a counsellor rather than a horseman. He may not have had the stereotypical appearance or build of a rider. But then I'm not sure the makers of the film would have picked up on that kind of idea.

[The Saucepan Man]

At his feet upon the steps sat a wizened figure of a man, with a pale wise face and heavy-lidded eyes.

Since "wizened" means "shrivelled", the description that Tolkien gives does rather suggest someone of shorter stature than your average man of Rohan. Did anyone actually imagine Grima as anything other than diminutive and hunched when they first read LotR? I certainly didn't. I saw him much as the films portray him.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

He was too ugly, though. Like a pantomime baddie. Grima should surely look slightly normal.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by SpM

Since "wizened" means "shrivelled", the description that Tolkien gives does rather suggest someone of shorter stature than your average man of Rohan. Did anyone actually imagine Grima as anything other than diminutive and hunched when they first read LotR? I certainly didn't. I saw him much as the films portray him.

It's strange how words can have an effect on you, as I always associated 'wizened' with 'old', so that is always how I have pictured Grima. I can see the image of two very old men sitting together in Meduseld very clearly. But of course 'wizened' does not have to mean old, it could also mean he is very thin, or even that he has some kind of disability brought on through a wasting illness.

[Bêthberry]

Funny and clever thread title, Nimrodel_9! I see Eomer's habit of ghosting old songs is becoming influential. But then, we wouldn't be the dead if we didn't ghost things, eh?

I must say that I was so impressed with Brad Dourif's portrayal of Grima that hair colour never crossed my mind. But to be honest, I tend to become a tad uncomfortable with all Tolkien's descriptions of a people's hair colour and eye colour, as if there were a kind of, well, I don't wish to imply anything here, but 'racial purity' is the term that comes to mind.

There are, for example, Germans who don't fit the North American stereotype that all Aryans are blonde-haired and blue eyed. There are Germans with dark hair. There are also Irish with black hair and dark eyes. I've been told they are called the 'black Irish' because they descend from the Spanish sailors who survived the defeat of the Spanish Armada by making for the coast of Ireland.

My point is that all of Europe, no less than the British Isles, reflects the intermingling of various of the very old and ancient tribes which first settled parts of the continent. And actually the Appendices of LotR suggests this very state in the story of Helm Hammerhand, a king of The Mark before Theodon, who came to blows with Freca, a man who demanded the hand of the King's daughter for his son, although it does so with a wiff of insinuation about rival tribal claims.

There was at this time a man named Freca, who claimed descent from King Freawine, though he had, men said, much Dunlendish blood, and was dark-haired.

Helm even calls Freca "Dunlending" before he dispatches him with a blow that kills his rival and then he decrees Freca's son and kin the King's enemies.

So, clearly, there was some mixing of Rohirrim and Dunlending blood and it is not inconceivable that Grima could be given some Dunlending ancestry as explanation for both his outsider status and his dark deeds.

[Boromir88]

There was another thread (which I can't find at the moment) which sort of goes along with this and had me like Grima's appearance as shown in the movies.

One, he looks just like your typical squirmy/wimp bad guy; small, black robes, black hair, and pale skinned, (he had yellow teeth too right)? So he just represents the typical bad guy.

The other is I think it goes in to explain why Grima began to dislike Eomer, his people of Rohan, and ended up turning to Saruman. He is out of place in Rohan. The typical description of Rohan has been said, Eomer, Theodred, Theoden, and the other great marshals/people look like this. Grima is left out. Also, these are soldiers, Grima is a councillor. So making him different from the rest of the Rohan people one makes him look like a bad guy, two explains why he would dislike people like Theoden and Eomer.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

But to be honest, I tend to become a tad uncomfortable with all Tolkien's descriptions of a people's hair colour and eye colour, as if there were a kind of, well, I don't wish to imply anything here, but 'racial purity' is the term that comes to mind.

As an aside, what is Tolkien's obsession with Hair about? On Ardalambion's (downloadable) Quenya wordlist I find the following:

finda "having hair, -haired" (the gloss "-haired" evidently means that finda may be used in compounds, like *carnifinda "red-haired") (PM:340)
Findaráto *"Hair-champion", Sindarized as Finrod (SA:ar(a) )
findë (1) "hair" (especially of the head) (PM:340), "a tress or plait of hair" (PM:345), "tress, braid of hair, lock of hair" (SPIN)
findë (2) "cunning" (prob. noun) (LT1:253; this "Qenya" word is evidently obsoleted by # 1 above)
Findecáno ("-káno") *"Hair-commander"; Sindarized as Fingon (PM:344)
findessë "a head of hair, a person's hair as a whole" (PM:345)
findl "lock of hair, tress" (but findil elsewhere - in LotR-style Quenya, no word can end in -dl). (LT2:341)
finë (stem *fini-, given the primitive form phini) "a hair" (PM:340) or "larch" (SPIN)
finië "cunning" (prob. noun) (LT1:253)
finwa "sagacious" (LT1:253)
Finwë masc. name, apparently displaying the frequent ending -wë suffixed to a stem normally having to do with hair, but the name is obscure (see Tolkien's discussion in PM:340-341). Also in Etym (PHIN, WEG). According to VT46:9, Finwë was also the name of tengwa #10 in the pre-classical Tengwar system presupposed in the Etymologies, but Tolkien would later call #10 formen instead.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by davem

As an aside, what is Tolkien's obsession with Hair about? On Ardalambion's (downloadable) Quenya wordlist I find the following:

I knew there was a reason why hairstyle was such an important part of the first REB. But I am disappointed in Rimbaud. He should have named Gravy 'Findecáno'.

Does Grima ever ask Eowyn for a lock of her hair? Or attempt to run his fingers through her hair?

[davem]

This is the Ardalambion Quenya wordlist for anyone who wants it (first link).

[solarisa]

he needs to be icky, for a bad guy...also, he's very noticable lol so ppl wouldn't get confused "which person is grima again"?