who's the oldest?

[Firnantoonion]

I don't know wther this has been an earlier subject, but who is older? Fangorn or Bombadil, I mean, Bombadil was the first, and fangorn the oldest.... has Treebeard lingered in Valinor before he came to middle-earth?

[Lord of Angmar]

This is a strange question. Bombadil was First in Ea, but that does not, I think, include forests and landscapes. Fangorn Forest may have been around before Bombadil, but there were no sentient peoples before Bombadil.

As for Treebeard, I do not think he was ever in Valinor. He was created long after the Ainur descended on Ea, so Bombadil is certainly older than him. But, again, I am not sure the exact meaning of your question.

[Sharkû]

Tom is somewhat of a special case and is arguably oldest of them all; at any rate when you base age on the time one being entered Ea.

The relative age of Ents remains a debated question. I remember this thread fondly.

Also, see here for another thread on the matter.

[Firnantoonion]

Maybe I was a bit unclear, with Fangorn, I meant treebeard and not the forest, sorry

[tinewelt]

Do not forget that "treebeard is Fangorn". (do not have books with me, but this quote is in TTT, if I am not mistaken) this quote was made by Gandalf I believe, when asked who is Treebeard by one of the fellowship.

[Firnantoonion]

and Lord, thank you for the links [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Firnantoonion]

eh, sorry sharku [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Morgoth the Great]

Bombadil was known to the Valar, who saw him as the first creature ever. therefore he was probably made before The Ents.

[ August 14, 2003: Message edited by: Morgoth the Great ]

[Lord of Angmar]

Morgoth, use the edit tool to make corrections to your post.

Bombadil was certainly 'created' before the Ents. I have never read that the Valar knew of him. Where did you find this information?

[Iarwain]

This argument is futile. Let's take a look:

-Bombadil's name states that he is "Eldest and Fatherless". The elves named him such. However, he is also mysterious beyond explaination, and is an enigma that cannot be finally solved.

-Fangorn never claims to be "Eldest". It is well known that the Elves awoke the tree-shepherds, therefore making all ents younger than elves, and therefore younger than any Maiar on Middle-Earth.

-The various Istari, being Maiar, and therefore Ainur, were the first creation of Eru: the "fruit of his thought". This would place them far before anyone that awoke in Middle-Earth, be he man, elf, or ent.

-Statement 3 poses a problem, because how can Bombadil be eldest if he is not a Maia? And then we further the question by asking how we know that Bombadil isn't a Maia. But we realize that there is no specific evidence that says that he is a Maia, rather than a Vala, or even Eru incarnate.

-By now, we have lost all consideration of who is "eldest" because we lack a clear understanding of Bombadil's nature. The discussion turns to him and him alone, and we create yet another "Who is Tom Bombadil?" thread.

I think that wraps it up.


Iarwain

[Lush]

For an excellent thread on the supposed nature of Tom, look right here.

Besides that, from what I understood of Tom's age, as explained by Tom himself, he is almost definitely older than Treebeard. He was there before the "Dark Lord came from Outside."

[ August 14, 2003: Message edited by: Lush ]

[Firnantoonion]

I have looked at it again, and it seems that tom was even there before the land was made in a inhabitable state: (as far as that is possible) he says somewhere, that he remembers the first leafs to fall from the trees, wich means that he was directly there on the earth, right on the moment that it was made (or but futile moments later), probably even before the valar went to arda...

[Olorin]

Since Bombadil is the eldest and the fatherless, but Treebeard is the oldest living being, it leads me to believe that Bombadil is the oldest nonliving being, but Treebeard is the oldest living being.

[Orogaerion]

what exactly do you mean by saying that Bombadil is nonliving?

[Firnantoonion]

in an other topic about this subject, it says that Tom is the incarnation of Arda.. therefore he could 'be'there before melkor came, and he would know of every leaf to fall... also, this would explain his songs of might, for Arda itself is a song.

[Lush]

Tom seems pretty alive to me, what with the gorgeous wife ( [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ), the feasting, the singing, the collecting of pretty broches...

Perhaps you are trying to draw some sort of biological distinction between Tom and Treebeard, based on which of the two is closer to the real-world definition of life?

But in that case, you'd have to say that Gandalf is "nonliving" as well.

[Lord Gothmog]

Perhaps you are trying to draw some sort of biological distinction between Tom and Treebeard, based on which of the two is closer to the real-world definition of life?

But in that case, you'd have to say that Gandalf is "nonliving" as well.

So far as Gandalf is concerned, he is, with the other Istari, in a completly different class to any other in Middle-earth.

The point of difference being put forward is that between "Living" refering to creatures born of Arda and "Non Living" refering to creatures not born of Arda. The Istari were originaly created before Arda and by this definition would be "Non Living" but as we can see from this Quote from Unfinished Tales about them:

For with the consent of Eru they sent members of their own high order, but clad in bodies as of men, real and not feigned, but subject to the fears and pains and weariness of earth, able to hunger and thirst and be slain; though because of their noble spirits they did not die, and aged only by the cares and labours of many long years.

Therefore the Istari were of both "Living" and "Non Living". However, their "Real and not Feigned" bodies were much younger than Fangorn and Bombadil.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Bombadil seems to have been in Arda from the start the Ents seem to be the first race that entered Arda, Treebeard was the oldest of the 'Ents' as a race, whilst Tom was a individual a intentional enigma.

Even some whole inventions like the remarkable Ents, oldest of all living rational creatures

Letter #131; Letters of Tolkien

Ents the most ancient people surviving in the Third Age

Appendix F

When the children awake, then the thought of Yavanna should awake too, and it will summon spirits from afar and they will go among the kelvar and olvar

Of Ents and Eagles; HoME 11

We also find in the Treason of Isengard[/I (HoME 7) that the chapter [I]Treebeard was mainly written 'written itself' that it had no basis, Tolkien just wrote and followed his train of thoughts.

He is called 'eldest' or referred to as being the eldest creature by others, such as Gandalf and Celeborn.

Elves are the 'firstborn' of the Eruhini and the first speakers-hence the collective term 'Quendi'.

[Olorin]

Well to be nonliving and dead are two different things. I mean nonliving in the biological sense (with the exception of the rule that everything alive has to have a limited life span in which case, elves would be considered nonliving). I'm pretty conviced on the theory of Bombadil being an earth spirit which would be considered nonliving and not dead.

Sorry if I'm not making sense, it wouldn't be the first time. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Firnantoonion]

well, I at least get what you try to say [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img],
and this:

I'm pretty convinced on the theory of Bombadil being an earth spirit which would be considered nonliving and not dead.

would fit in nice with the theory I brought forth here that Bombadil is the incarnation of Arda.
(alas, I am not the one who has invented this theory, If I would know him, he would get all the credits [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img])

[ August 17, 2003: Message edited by: Firnantoonion ]

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

It is well known that the Elves awoke the tree-shepherds, therefore making all ents younger than elves, and therefore younger than any Maiar on Middle-Earth.

Not as well known as you might think. In reading my brand-spanking new copy of The Two Towers, I found the part where Treebeard is talking about the being fond of Elves. He says that the Elves cured them from dumbness, but he doesn't mention being woken by them. And in the Silm. it says:

Behold! When the Children awake, then the thought of Yavanna will awake also...

Which is saying that Elves and Ents came into being at the same time.

However, that's not the point of this thread (not exactly, in any case), so here is my related contribution:

Fangorn claims to be the oldest living thing on/in Middle Earth, and Bombadil claims to be the eldest. He never mentions 'eldest living', and so my idea is that he is not truly alive in the sense of the word. A part of life is death; it completes the circle, however Bombadil can't die (or at least he won't until all else has), and so I surmise that he is not truly alive. As Bombadil says, he 'is', but that neither confirms nor denies life, for there are many things in the world that 'are', and yet are not living. A dead tree for instance still plays a crucial part in nature, and it undeniably 'is', and yet it is not living.

Nobody really knows what Bombadil is; all they have to go with is a sneeze-worth of information provided by Tolkien, and whatever they come up with on their own. Theories range from him being Earth (which although holds life, is not really alive), to being an embodiment of Eru (please don't yell at me, I know this has been proven wrong by Tolkien himself), but even if it were so, is Iluvitar 'alive', as we understand the word? Not really. No matter what Bombadil is, we don't know that he is actually a living being, although we do know that he 'is'. Fangorn however is most definately alive, very old, and not infallible. He calls Saruman young, he doesn't know what hobbits are, and he lives a long way away from Bombadil. It may be possible that he is unaware that Bombadil exists and is older than him. Just my confused jumble of thoughts. It makes sense to me at least...

Fea

[Lush]

Theories range from him being Earth (which although holds life, is not really alive)...

I guess that depends on what your definition of "alive" is. The definition that consists of a birth and/or creation, an existence of whatever length, and an eventual death, can apply to the Earth, I believe.

The biological definition of life, I believe, is too narrow for the likes of Bombadil.

Besides that, he's no dead tree. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Firnantoonion]

It may be possible that he is unaware that Bombadil exists and is older than him

that may be, but he calls himself never the oldest, Gandalf and Galadriel do that.

besides, he does call saruman young, but he does that because he doesnt know exactly what wizards are (he himself says that) and therefore begins to count their years from the day they came into Middle-earth, wich is, with his years, a very short time indeed...

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Galadriel do that.

I believe it was Celeborn not Galadriel who calls him 'eldest'.

[Firnantoonion]

I believe it was Celeborn not Galadriel who calls him 'eldest'.

I looked it up and you're absolutely right.

[Alatariel]

In TTT, Gandalf states:

"Treebeard is Fangorn, the guardian of the forest; he is the oldest of all the Ents, the oldest living thing that still walks beneath the Sun upon this Middle-earth."

[Tarien Ithil]

Tom Bombadil was a Maia spirit who came to Middle-earth in the Ages of Starlight. He was also called Iarwain Ben-adar, which means 'old' and 'without father'.


But Treebeard is said to be the oldest Ent, or the oldest of his race. Tom, however, is a spirit, in the form of a little man.

Bombadil is the oldest nonliving being

Bombadil was a spirit and therefore didn’t belong to any race but I wouldn’t day he was nonliving because he was living, just as a spirit and spirits, created by Iluvatar, have existed since the evolution of Arda…………

So, there may be a difference between Treebeard and Tom because, as far as I know, Treebeard was not a spirit of any kind, but Tom was, so Tom surely was around before Treebeard………………….

[ArathorofBarahir]

I think Bombadil is older than Treebeard. But Treebeard has been around since the creation of middle earth.

[Gilbo]

Quote:
"When the Children awake, then the thoughts of Yavanna will awake also, AND IT WILL SUMMON SPIRITS FROM AFAR, and they will go among the Kelvar and the Olvar, and SOME will dwell therein, and be held in reverence, and their just anger shall be feared"
My theory is that that SOME of the spirits became Ents, and SOME of the spirits became Bombadil and Goldberry
quote:
"...and they saw a new World made visible before them, and it was globed amid the VOID, and it was sustained therein,but was not of it."
quote:
(of Ungoliant)"The Eldar knew not whence she came; but some have said that in ages long before she descended from the DARKNESS THAT LIES ABOUT ARDA..."
We know from JRRT that Tom was not a Maia. Yet, he was a power to be reckonned with, and the Ring held no sway over him. We can infer that the Ents are not Maia because of the limited use of the power that they have, but we have seen that "spirits...dwell therein".
Theory 2. The Spirits were from the void.
Can this be compatible with what we do know about Tom? I believe it does. It also offers a clue to the disposition of the fear of the Ents that died.
Therefore, I propose that Tom and Treebeard are of the some age. Now! Let the Stone throwing begin!
[img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]
(sorry, I don't know how to work the UBB yet. Perhaps a kind Spirit will clean this up.)

[Secret Fire]

First of all, Tom, as I believe, was created by the music of the Ainur because he was there before the Dark Lord came from Outside (the Dark Lord of whom Sauron is only an emmisary, Melko(r)), and He cam in the beginning with the Vala, this coupled with that the thought of Yavanna (and Aule?) awoke at the same time as the firstborne would lead me to believe that Tom, sonce he was around before the Valar, is the oldest as his name suggests and Fangorn is the eldest "creature" on ME, and Tom is the embodiment of Arda/Ea. I believe that Tom was "older" in the sense of existing longer, but does tom age at all? [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

[ October 13, 2003: Message edited by: Secret Fire ]