LotR -- Book 5 - Chapter 04 - The Siege of Gondor

[Encaitare]

Maybe the people of Gondor would have adopted a new system. If Aragorn had died, leaving no heir, then there would have been no one else to rule. Faramir was a beloved leader in Minas Tirith, and perhaps knowing that there was no "rightful" king anymore, the people there would have decided to crown Faramir instead. Kind of like how in the youth of the US, people wanted Washington to be king.

Mere speculation, of course.

[Kuruharan]

Ok, but there would have been no Aragorn-Arwen marriage, with the loss of that bloodline stretching back to Melian & beyond.

Well, yes this is true. This is an almost "elvish" point in not wanting this last little bit of "magic" to pass from Middle-earth.

If the king had not returned it would not have made such a grand ending (in such case some "modernist" critics might have found it more appealing). However, Gandalf as a character could not concern himself with such things. On the other hand, he was rather "elvish" in disposition.

Maybe the people of Gondor would have adopted a new system. If Aragorn had died, leaving no heir, then there would have been no one else to rule. Faramir was a beloved leader in Minas Tirith, and perhaps knowing that there was no "rightful" king anymore, the people there would have decided to Faramir instead. Kind of like how in the youth of the US, people wanted Washington to be king.

I think Faramir would have had a reaction similar to that of Washington.

[Encaitare]

I think Faramir would have had a reaction similar to that of Washington.

Aye, and I think ye speak truth.

[davem]

Who made the fireworks?

The bells of day had scarcely rung out again, a mockery in the unlightened dark, when far away he saw fires spring up, across in the dim spaces where the walls of the Pelennor stood. The watchman cried aloud, and all men in the City stood to arms. Now ever and anon there was a red flash, and slowly through the heavy air dull rumbles could be heard.
'They have taken the wall!' men cried. 'They are blasting breaches in it. They are coming!'

This is the 'blasting fire' of Orthanc which breached the wall of Helm's Deep:

"But the Orcs have brought a devilry from Orthanc," said Aragorn. "They have a blasting fire, and with it they took the Wall. If they cannot come in the caves, they may seal up those that are inside. But now we must turn all our thought to our own defence."

So, was Aragorn right? Was it Saruman who invented 'gunpowder', or did he learn it from Sauron?

Or did Gandalf start the whole nasty business off - he's the one who's famous for fireworks after all?

Gandalf seems, on the face of it, the most likely candidate - he was the bearer of Narya, the Ring of Fire. Is it possible that Gandalf's little toys inspired his fellow Istari to come up with the explosives used at Helm's Deep, & that Sauron then obtained the knowledge from him via the Palantir?

Whatever the answer it seems that this 'blasting fire' was less of a shock to the Gondorians than it was to the Rohirrim. Its appearance at Helm's Deep certainly seems to have thrown the defenders into confusion, whereas the men of Minas Tirith appear to see it almost as a 'standard tactic' of Sauron's forces - they are not stunned into silence by something totally unexpected, but know that a 'flash' & a 'dull rumble' in the distance means explosives.

A more interesting question is how far away they were from creating cannons? Probably not far. It seems that the defeat of Sauron put an end to the development of firearms. That technology dies with the defeat of Sauron. The West does not take it up & make use of it later - even for self-defence. I don't know whether that was Tolkien's comment on the use made of Nazi rocket technology by the allies in the post war period, but it certainly points up a difference between the victors in the War of the Ring & the victors of WW2.

Another interesting weapon is the incendiary 'bombs'. As Lalwende says:

And what about the secret art that caused the missiles to burst into flame as they landed? Could they have been incendiary devices, filled with unstable compounds?

Tolkien seems to be referring to something like Greek Fire. Again, 'high-technology' weaponry is being employed against a civilisation armed only with swords, arrows & spears. Clearly, the West would stand little chance of survival if the Ring had not been destroyed, but I think there is perhaps a deeper theme underlying the West's refusal to use this kind of weaponry. It is like the Ring in one way - use of it will corrupt the user. Just as one cannot use the Ring without becoming like Sauron so one cannot use the 'lesser' weapons of the Enemy without risking a similar fate. To behave like the enemy requires one to think like him, to think like him is to risk becoming like him. The promise of easy victory is what lures one to the edge of the abyss. Just as the West must reject the Ring, so it must reject the use of 'blasting fire' & incendiary devices.

Of course, that's fine for a fantasy world - things are different in the 'real world' aren't they?

[Lhunardawen]

Reading Lalwendë's 'defense' of Denethor made me feel a bit remorseful of the way I have viewed him the first time I read this chapter, and even until now. I had the spectator's perspective that made me know more things concerning the Ring than Denethor did, plus I had the privilege of 'being in the Council of Elrond' while he never even saw his 'emissary' to the Council again.

With these in mind, I'm beginning to entertain notions that maybe it was Gandalf who erred all along. He was too harsh in dealing with Denethor's misconceptions about the Ring, and he did not even think of correcting him gently - not that Denethor would listen to him. But at the very least he could have done his part in lovingly trying to rebuke Denethor, even though him being scorned upon in return by the Steward is almost a given. Giving Gandalf the benefit of the doubt, though, maybe he had been too caught up with the events that he did not think of doing so.

But on the other hand, probably it was Denethor's 'responsibility' as Steward to do his research on the Ring, to (sort of) get to know his Enemy better. And at this critical point in time, Gandalf had no room for irresponsible Stewards.

[Bêthberry]

As always, late to this debate, but what garden is ever complete and never in need of more tending, eh?

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Looking objectively at Denethor and forgetting for a moment how much we all love Faramir, his behaviour shows him to have been a great leader who has slowly been worn down by the threat of war.

I'm not so sure it is our love for Faramir which colours our reading of Denethor, but the cumulative effects of our reading the story. I think Lhunardawen's initial stance as a reader is closer to what the narrative offers.

As I reread this chapter, I was struck by how much our interpretation of the Steward depends upon our remembering the fall and passing of Boromir and the Council of Elrond. And of how well we have attended to Sam and Frodo's story and the effect of the Ring there.

There is, first of all, Pippin's rather bizarre image of Denethor:

There Denethor sat in a grey gloom, like an old patient spider, Pippin thought; he did not seem to have moved since the day before.

Is it simply happenstance that Tolkien gives to Pippin the spider image or are we to recall the malevolent creature whose personal self-indulgences have led to so terrible a state for Sam and Frodo? Shelob of course left others immobile in her webs, but this spider-Denethor seems to be trapped within a web of his own making. However we recall--or not--Shelob, Pippin's image is hardly one of grandeur and, indeed, implies a self-imposed imprisonment. The suggestion is that Denethor is trapped by his own making and is not a leader who is reacting to events, but is frozen. At least, this would appear to be Pippin's interpretation.

Then there is the meeting in Denethor's private chambers, where Faramir is to report to his Lord upon his ten days' errand. How Tolkien handles this scene is interesting, for we have not one word from Denethor to Faramir about strategic details. Yes, he bows his head as if he knows all, and we come to understand why he should be so unquestioning about events, but Tolkien gives to Gandalf the role of military strategist, having the wizard ask pointedly about time, days, distances travelled. Denethor is moved to involvement, to reply, only when he is displeased by the personality of his younger son. Despite his criticism that Faramir fails to demonstrate the appropriate miliatary judgement, Denethor himself does not display such judgement and instead reacts not to the military questions at hand, but to something personal and intimate between him and his son; Denethor also allows himself the luxury of jealousy with Gandalf rather than remaining above questions of personality.

Then too, we have Denethor discussing the use of the Ring in terms which recall those Boromir used at the Council of Elrond, the pride and arrogance of an old family who believes itself personally entitled to rule (and, within Tolkien's values of Middle-earth, without the blood of kings to vouchsafe that belief). Denethor never once asks Gandalf to report on the Council of Elrond; he never inquires about Elrond's reasoning. It is true that Gandalf does not offer it, but once again, Denthor fails to ask a military strategist's questions.

How ironic are his words: "He would have brought me a mighty gift." At this point in the story, readers have enough knowledge to understand that Gandalf here is in the right when he says,

"He [Boromir] would have stretched out his hand to this thing, and taking it he would have fallen. He would have kept it for his own, and when he returned you would not have known your son. . . . And now hearing you speak I trust you less, no more than Boromir. Nay, stay your wrath. I do not trust myself with this, and I refused this thing, even as a freely given gift."

Surely also as Denethor speaks of what he would do with the Ring readers remember Galadriel's refusing of it.

My point is less to attack Denethor than to consider how the chapter leads readers to make certain interpretations about its events. The chapter is slippery as befits a depiction of a man who is in the final stages of madness. How much so, readers will learn in the next chapter when Denethor decides to place the still living Faramir on a burning pyre with himself. But for now, we have a complex character who has many sympathetic and positive traits but who has fallen by a technology as powerful as the Ring. Denethor is unknowingly the traitor within and this chapter gives readers the chance to balance the Steward's point of view with that of Gandalf. We might wish that Gandald had been more patient and persuasive with Denethor, but all of the wizard's statements are points which we as readers have already seen are the 'right' interpretation.

In other words, Denethor is fated to not understand because the author wished his character not to understand, and provided evidence in the text for readers to see how his understanding failed.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Lhunardawen

Reading Lalwendë's 'defense' of Denethor made me feel a bit remorseful of the way I have viewed him the first time I read this chapter, and even until now. I had the spectator's perspective that made me know more things concerning the Ring than Denethor did, plus I had the privilege of 'being in the Council of Elrond' while he never even saw his 'emissary' to the Council again.

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

My point is less to attack Denethor than to consider how the chapter leads readers to make certain interpretations about its events.

I would not say I was defending Denethor, more that I was trying to view him without the weight of the story bearing down on his character. At this point as readers we have learned much and are fully convinced of the bad effects of the Ring, but Denethor is not, he is a character who has not left Minas Tirith in all that time.

I would suppose that differing viewpoints must originate from the way we read. When we read all the way through we don't tend to drop what we have learned that easily, but for these CbC discussions we are reading slowly and closely. Therefore it is much easier to step into Denethor's shoes as we don't have the impetus to keep going with the story at all costs. I think it is helpful, too, to momentarily unburden ourselves of what we have learned and see what is really going on in this character's mind at this point.

'Do you wish then,' said Faramir, 'that our places had been exchanged?'

'Yes, I wish that indeed,' said Denethor. 'For Boromir was loyal to me and no wizard's pupil. He would have remembered his father's need, and would not have squandered what fortune gave. He would have brought me a mighty gift.'

Denethor is being driven by a host of conflicting emotions at this point. He is suffering grief for his elder son, the city he is responsible for is finally coming under attack after years of waiting, he is also responsible for a great number of people, and we must presume that he has been looking in the Palantir and has been shown things designed to work on his fears and break him down. Here his second son returns with news that just about finishes him off - if he is heading for a mental breakdown then this is the catalyst.

This Ring means a lot to Denethor. He truly believes that it will help him defend his city and people; he is about to see the military strength which Mordor can put forwards and it surpasses his worst fears, and Gondor stands no chance against this enemy. He needs that Ring. These are desperate days, and time is running out, and we see all these characters in a heightened state of fear, which is partly why they fail to communicate effectively with each other. There is no time, and tempers are high.

Denethor, who is not only a father but a leader, has sent one son to bring the Ring to Gondor, and he has lost him. Not only that, but he has only just heard how his son died. His other son has been given the opportunity to take the Ring on his own doorstep and has turned it down. Denethor cannot believe this. Consider how one son has accepted the task he has offered and died in the process, while the other son is handed success on a plate and turns it down. If we apply this to a modern situation then Denethor's reaction is wrong, but it is also not unexpected, especially for a man cracking under pressure.

Bearing in mind that Faramir is suffering not only grief at the death of his brother (and close comrades?) but also a blow to his own self-worth in seeing Minas Tirith finally beginning to succumb, and we also have Gandalf making an appearance, and miscommunication becomes increasingly likely. It does seem that Denethor has a long standing resentment against Gandalf for his influence on his second son, and this is brought bubbling to the surface when he finds out what opportunity Faramir has given up. He clearly believes that Faramir has been influenced more by his sometime mentor than by his own father, and such a reaction is believable as it stems from the seething instincts of love and jealousy. This is what is interesting about what Denethor spits out at Faramir. he could mean that he wishes he had Boromir back by his side, but it could also mean that he simply wishes that it had been Boromir who met Frodo defenceless in Ithilien.

I think that the story is so much more effective, and conveys far more of the tragedy when we can look at it through the eyes of each character and how they respond to events. I'd rather not look at Denethor as a flat out bad guy. I'm not seeking to defend him, but I want to know why he reacts in the way he does, as the story must have been written that way for a very good reason.