LotR -- Book 5 - Chapter 04 - The Siege of Gondor

[Durelin]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

This I think is the clearest statement of what Gandalf really cared about that one will find anywhere. He says that Gondor may fall (and at that moment there was no certainty that Aragorn would win through and survive the war to become king). The success of his mission did not depend on Aragorn's triumph.

I think this shows that no one in particular was specifically important to Gandalf’s ultimate task of ensuring the defeat of Sauron. His many plans (i.e., getting Frodo to Rivendell, getting Aragorn to claim his throne, getting Denethor out of the way, etc…), rather, were simply ‘little’ things. They were little in the sense of the ‘big picture’, a big picture that meant only the defeat of Sauron…eventually (‘flower again in days to come’…sometime in the future, the things that survived would be free from Sauron’s power).

Gandalf’s ‘little plans’ were all things that acted in a ripple effect, and through this, ultimately gained his goal with the destruction of the Ring and the defeat of Sauron. Gandalf had no need to depend on one of these plans… Thinking of weaving, Gandalf was leading so many little threads into others to create the desired effect, that his final goal would not be gone if he lost any of these threads, as he had only to pick up more and try again.

(I had what I think was a more coherent post written, but due to my computer’s hatred of me, it is now sadly buried in cyberspace.)

[Kuruharan]

I disagree with one small part...

I think he (and everyone else) would have been in deep doo-doo had the "get Frodo to Rivendell" thread been lost (although he personally did not have a whole lot to do with that).

[Lhunardawen]

Originally Posted by davem

The Faramir/Gandalf/Denethor dynamic is interesting. Faramir seeks to do the right thing, but clearly he looks to Gandalf to discover (or confirm) what that 'right' thing is, not to his father. One can see where Denethor's jealousy comes from - & it clearly is in large part simply that - jealousy of Gandalf who seems to have usurped his own fatherly role in Faramir's mind. Denethor seems to feel he has lost a second son. He feels betrayed by Faramir & reacts with anger, lashing out at his son.

But wasn't it Denethor who didn't treat Faramir rightly from the start? He had always made it obvious that he preferred Boromir over Faramir, and Faramir accepted that. Now that Boromir's gone, Denethor would still not let go of him. Faramir was willing to do everything Boromir had left behind, yet Denethor still did not recognize that - when he said, "That would depend upon the manner of your return." I think Denethor only realized what he had all along (i.e., Faramir) when he was about to lose it.

[daeron]

This is my first time and if there are a few things posted here that have been discussed previously in other chapters, (for there are a few general things).I'm sorry. Please point them out.

To start off, this chapter rocks!
So many things happen here. This is probably one of the longest chapters. After the council and 'Shadow of the past', I think.

The best thing of this chapter, and indeed of the tale itself, is that we view it from the eyes of a small, simple and frightened hobbit to whom everything sounds so large scale and everything important, who holds every soldier as worthy and mainly who feels strongly for all his friends.. I'm sure it wouldn't have been as interesting if said from the view of a citizen of Gondor, a soldier or healer or someone or even fom Gandalf's or Denethor's view.. (This is where I hold Tolkien's works much better than some fanfics. Human emotion and the mighty's view is too complicated to suit imagination. Nothing seems very extrodinary.)

One thing I noticed. Look at this statement.

...small things of border war that now seemed useless and petty, shorn of their renown.

We have always seen the story being told from a hobbit's perspective, atleast when they were present. But I'm sure pippin won't think of Faramir's report as petty, he has never witnessed such ambushes and daring actions of war and looks at everyone present in awe and respect. Is there another narrator present always. In the sense that, we are never told of what is going on in the minds of the better of the ones present. It has always been seen from the 'not so mighty' (for lack of better word) eyes, Sam's or Pippin's or Merry's or Legolas and Gimli's.I never noticed this before. Was that narrator present always, giving his thoughts in between?

There are a few more things which I'll post in detail later, more to do with the chapter itself.