LotR -- Book 5 - Chapter 04 - The Siege of Gondor

[davem]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I also think that you perhaps overstate the return of the king as being part of Gandalf's mission. While it would be nice, I don't think Gandalf (in a "mission from the Valar" sense) considered it vital. His job was to defeat Sauron. He was using Aragorn as much as he was using Denethor. Obviously things would turn out a little better (if you want to look at it that way) for Aragorn than Denethor under this arrangement. I guess it is true that Gandalf was not particularly concerned about that.

I think Gandalf's principal 'mission' was to help the free people's of Middle-earth to overthrow Sauron, but the ascendancy of Aragorn to the throne of Gondor will bring peace & stability to Middle-earth, & provide a strong foundation for Men's domination of the fourth & subsequent ages. The return of the True King was, I think, something Gandalf realised would be necessary. In Aragorn & Arwen the bloodlines of Men, Elves & Maiar are united & passed on through the ruling house. It is the ideal situation to leave Middle-earth in. I think Gandalf has realised this & this has become his goal - no doubt discussed with Elrond.

In short, I don't think Aragorn's succession is an 'optional extra' or merely a 'nice touch' to bring about a happy ending as far as Gandalf is concerned. He may not have been sent by the Valar with that specific goal in mind, but I think as time went on he would have come to include it in his mission......

IMO.....

[Kuruharan]

The return of the True King was, I think, something Gandalf realised would be necessary. In Aragorn & Arwen the bloodlines of Men, Elves & Maiar are united & passed on through the ruling house. It is the ideal situation to leave Middle-earth in. I think Gandalf has realised this & this has become his goal - no doubt discussed with Elrond.

In short, I don't think Aragorn's succession is an 'optional extra' or merely a 'nice touch' to bring about a happy ending as far as Gandalf is concerned. He may not have been sent by the Valar with that specific goal in mind, but I think as time went on he would have come to include it in his mission

I don't believe that you are laying enough emphasis on...

And for my part, I shall not wholly fail of my task, though Gondor should perish, if anything passes through this night that can still grow fair or bear fruit and flower again in days to come.

This I think is the clearest statement of what Gandalf really cared about that one will find anywhere. He says that Gondor may fall (and at that moment there was no certainty that Aragorn would win through and survive the war to become king). The success of his mission did not depend on Aragorn's triumph.

[Durelin]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

This I think is the clearest statement of what Gandalf really cared about that one will find anywhere. He says that Gondor may fall (and at that moment there was no certainty that Aragorn would win through and survive the war to become king). The success of his mission did not depend on Aragorn's triumph.

I think this shows that no one in particular was specifically important to Gandalf’s ultimate task of ensuring the defeat of Sauron. His many plans (i.e., getting Frodo to Rivendell, getting Aragorn to claim his throne, getting Denethor out of the way, etc…), rather, were simply ‘little’ things. They were little in the sense of the ‘big picture’, a big picture that meant only the defeat of Sauron…eventually (‘flower again in days to come’…sometime in the future, the things that survived would be free from Sauron’s power).

Gandalf’s ‘little plans’ were all things that acted in a ripple effect, and through this, ultimately gained his goal with the destruction of the Ring and the defeat of Sauron. Gandalf had no need to depend on one of these plans… Thinking of weaving, Gandalf was leading so many little threads into others to create the desired effect, that his final goal would not be gone if he lost any of these threads, as he had only to pick up more and try again.

(I had what I think was a more coherent post written, but due to my computer’s hatred of me, it is now sadly buried in cyberspace.)

[Kuruharan]

I disagree with one small part...

I think he (and everyone else) would have been in deep doo-doo had the "get Frodo to Rivendell" thread been lost (although he personally did not have a whole lot to do with that).

[Lhunardawen]

Originally Posted by davem

The Faramir/Gandalf/Denethor dynamic is interesting. Faramir seeks to do the right thing, but clearly he looks to Gandalf to discover (or confirm) what that 'right' thing is, not to his father. One can see where Denethor's jealousy comes from - & it clearly is in large part simply that - jealousy of Gandalf who seems to have usurped his own fatherly role in Faramir's mind. Denethor seems to feel he has lost a second son. He feels betrayed by Faramir & reacts with anger, lashing out at his son.

But wasn't it Denethor who didn't treat Faramir rightly from the start? He had always made it obvious that he preferred Boromir over Faramir, and Faramir accepted that. Now that Boromir's gone, Denethor would still not let go of him. Faramir was willing to do everything Boromir had left behind, yet Denethor still did not recognize that - when he said, "That would depend upon the manner of your return." I think Denethor only realized what he had all along (i.e., Faramir) when he was about to lose it.

[daeron]

This is my first time and if there are a few things posted here that have been discussed previously in other chapters, (for there are a few general things).I'm sorry. Please point them out.

To start off, this chapter rocks!
So many things happen here. This is probably one of the longest chapters. After the council and 'Shadow of the past', I think.

The best thing of this chapter, and indeed of the tale itself, is that we view it from the eyes of a small, simple and frightened hobbit to whom everything sounds so large scale and everything important, who holds every soldier as worthy and mainly who feels strongly for all his friends.. I'm sure it wouldn't have been as interesting if said from the view of a citizen of Gondor, a soldier or healer or someone or even fom Gandalf's or Denethor's view.. (This is where I hold Tolkien's works much better than some fanfics. Human emotion and the mighty's view is too complicated to suit imagination. Nothing seems very extrodinary.)

One thing I noticed. Look at this statement.

...small things of border war that now seemed useless and petty, shorn of their renown.

We have always seen the story being told from a hobbit's perspective, atleast when they were present. But I'm sure pippin won't think of Faramir's report as petty, he has never witnessed such ambushes and daring actions of war and looks at everyone present in awe and respect. Is there another narrator present always. In the sense that, we are never told of what is going on in the minds of the better of the ones present. It has always been seen from the 'not so mighty' (for lack of better word) eyes, Sam's or Pippin's or Merry's or Legolas and Gimli's.I never noticed this before. Was that narrator present always, giving his thoughts in between?

There are a few more things which I'll post in detail later, more to do with the chapter itself.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

This I think is the clearest statement of what Gandalf really cared about that one will find anywhere. He says that Gondor may fall (and at that moment there was no certainty that Aragorn would win through and survive the war to become king). The success of his mission did not depend on Aragorn's triumph.

I'm not saying the success of his mission depended on it, I'm saying it had become a part of it. It wasn't just a matter of just defeating Sauron, & then walking away from the possible chaos that might result, it was about leaving Middle-earth in some kind of order for its new beginning. Having Aragorn become king, re-establishing the Royal line, etc, were all part of that.

Originally Posted by Lhunardawen

But wasn't it Denethor who didn't treat Faramir rightly from the start? He had always made it obvious that he preferred Boromir over Faramir, and Faramir accepted that. Now that Boromir's gone, Denethor would still not let go of him. Faramir was willing to do everything Boromir had left behind, yet Denethor still did not recognize that - when he said, "That would depend upon the manner of your return." I think Denethor only realized what he had all along (i.e., Faramir) when he was about to lose it.

Denethor was a man- that was his tragedy, if you like. He screwed up, behaved badly & was over proud, but at heart he was a flawed human being like all of us. Its too easy to judge. There but for the grace of God....

[Lalwendë]

Looking objectively at Denethor and forgetting for a moment how much we all love Faramir, his behaviour shows him to have been a great leader who has slowly been worn down by the threat of war. He may also have felt undermined by Gandalf’s influence on hiss second son. When Boromir is gone, Denethor expects Faramir to take his place, and when he is not immediately eager to do so his anger is roused. He points out that despite his fine qualities, Faramir must also demonstrate his martial qualities:

Ever your desire is to appear lordly and generous as a king of old, gracious, gentle. That may well befit one of high race, if he sits in power and peace. But in desperate hours gentleness may be repaid with death.

'Do you wish then,' said Faramir, 'that our places had been exchanged?'

'Yes, I wish that indeed,' said Denethor. 'For Boromir was loyal to me and no wizard's pupil. He would have remembered his father's need, and would not have squandered what fortune gave. He would have brought me a mighty gift.'

It is quite possible that this exchange has another meaning. They have been discussing Faramir's rejection of the Ring, an item which denethor in his heart believes he could have kept safe and kept to save his people, however misguided he has been by using the Palantir. And we must admit, it might seem nuts to send this Ring in the hands of a small seemingly defenceless Hobbit. He has sent Boromir to get the ring, but it is Faramir who has been presented with the best opportunity to take it. From these lines, particularly viewed in context of the second part, it could mean that Denethor believes Boromir would have taken the Ring. I like the possible double meaning as it brings depth to the relationship and how father and son misunderstand one another, and possibly always have misunderstood one another.

'If I had this thing now in the deep vaults of this citadel, we should not then shake with dread under this gloom, fearing the worst, and our counsels would be undisturbed.

Denethor is convinced that he could protect the Ring, but he is sorely misguided. Sooner or later Sauron would have waged war on Gondor, which seems, in military terms, to be woefully inadequate in terms of attack, focussing all its resources on defence. The resources available to Gondor are starkly clear:

he can afford to lose a host better than we to lose a company. And the retreat of those that we put out far afield will be perilous, if he wins across in force.'

This strategy can only hold out for so long against an aggressor. When that war came, the Ring would have been taken. In addition, he seems only to think of Gondor. Had the Ring been taken then it would not have just been Gondor that suffered, yet Denethor thinks of having the Ring only in terms of defence of his own country.

He will not come save only to triumph over me when all is won. He uses others as his weapons. So do all great lords, if they are wise, Master Halfling. Or why should I sit here in my tower and think, and watch, and wait, spending even my sons? For I can still wield a brand.'

Denethor’s notion of leadership is interesting. Sauron has ‘slaves’ to fight his wars, and Denethor has ‘soldiers’. The difference only lies in that soldiers may have had a choice in the matter. They still cannot break an oath or run from their posts; maybe the punishment would be less in Gondor, but it would still be a grave error for any man to do so. This of course is how modern wars are fought; it has been a long time since a British monarch was active in battle though we have had princes involved. Yet to spell out his notion of leadership betrays an arrogance, an air of superiority. Other leaders in Middle earth join the battle, but Denethor does not; he underlines how refined he is, how strategic and ‘advanced’.

I wonder what sort of technology Sauron has access to. The armies laying siege to Gondor use a number of interesting techniques, including hurling the heads of the Gondorian men over the walls. This would have not only a profound psychological effect but could possibly also spread disease, weakening the people. They have ‘planes’ in the form of the Fell beasts, and they have engines of war with the Mumakil.

Busy as ants hurrying orcs were digging, digging lines of deep trenches in a huge ring, just out of bowshot from the walls; and as the trenches were made each was filled with fire, though how it was kindled or fed, by art or devilry, none could see.

It was no brigand or orc-chieftain that ordered the assault upon the Lord of Mordor's greatest foe. A power and mind of malice guided it. As soon as the great catapults were set, with many yells and the creaking of rope and winch, they began to throw missiles marvellously high, so that they passed right above the battlement and fell thudding within the first circle of the City; and many of them by some secret art burst into flame as they came toppling down.

The trench building is ingenious, and no doubt learned through other sieges (of Eastern cities we do not know of?); this would hide Sauron's forces from the eyes of the Gondorians making it not only impossible to hit them but to see what they were up to. I wonder about how that fire was kindled. Could it have been with oil? And what about the secret art that caused the missiles to burst into flame as they landed? Could they have been incendiary devices, filled with unstable compounds?

But the chief weapon of the enemy is fear, a very potent topic these past few weeks in the real world.

the Black Captain leads them once again, and the fear of him has passed before him over the River.'

the darkness had reached its full and grew no deeper, it weighed heavier on men's hearts, and a great dread was on them. Ill news came soon again

But it is the Black Captain that defeats us. Few will stand and abide even the rumour of his coming. His own folk quail at him, and they would slay themselves at his bidding.'

He does not only scare the Gondorians, he scares his own people, who will willingly lay down their own lives if he wishes them to do so. In our own world such sacrifices are achieved through tyranny of the mind, and it appears that in Middle earth the same methods are used, though perhaps in a more mysterious way. Just mention of him is frightening enough, but when he arrives, he brings real and tangible terror to everyone save the one person who can understand the true nature of this ‘Black Captain’, Gandalf. And what an entrance he makes to the city! :

there was a flash of searing lightning, and the doors tumbled in riven fragments to the ground.

In rode the Lord of the Nazgul. A great black shape against the fires beyond he loomed up, grown to a vast menace of despair. In rode the Lord of the Nazgul, under the archway that no enemy ever yet had passed, and all fled before his face.
All save one. There waiting, silent and still in the space before the Gate, sat Gandalf upon Shadowfax: Shadowfax who alone among the free horses of the earth endured the terror, unmoving, steadfast as a graven image in Rath Dinen.

Finally, here we also have what I think is proof that the Witch King is possibly without any body or Hroa:

The Black Rider flung back his hood, and behold! he had a kingly crown; and yet upon no head visible was it set. The red fires shone between it and the mantled shoulders vast and dark. From a mouth unseen there came a deadly laughter.

Though the following line makes me wonder about Gandalf and the nature of his own mortality, or is it a slip of the pen, a commonly used image that Tolkien let slide by?

'Just now, Pippin, my heart almost failed me, hearing that name.

[Durelin]

I think he (and everyone else) would have been in deep doo-doo had the "get Frodo to Rivendell" thread been lost (although he personally did not have a whole lot to do with that).

Woops... Hehe, good point.

[Kuruharan]

I'm not saying the success of his mission depended on it, I'm saying it had become a part of it. It wasn't just a matter of just defeating Sauron, & then walking away from the possible chaos that might result, it was about leaving Middle-earth in some kind of order for its new beginning. Having Aragorn become king, re-establishing the Royal line, etc, were all part of that.

This may be deserving of its own topic, but...

I'm not sure that Middle-earth would have been left in chaos. Gondor would have been left under the rule of Faramir (and I can think of far worse people to be ruled by). Rohan might have ended up being ruled by Eowyn. That opens up the possibility of a Gondor/Rohan merger...

I guess the real difference is that there would have been no king over the wide empty spaces of Eriador.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

This may be deserving of its own topic, but...

I'm not sure that Middle-earth would have been left in chaos. Gondor would have been left under the rule of Faramir (and I can think of far worse people to be ruled by). Rohan might have ended up being ruled by Eowyn. That opens up the possibility of a Gondor/Rohan merger...

I guess the real difference is that there would have been no king over the wide empty spaces of Eriador.

Ok, but there would have been no Aragorn-Arwen marriage, with the loss of that bloodline stretching back to Melian & beyond. I certainly can't imagine either of them marrying anyone else...

I think you have a point about another thread on this subject - was Aragorn's succeeding to the throne of Gondor necessary, & if so for what reasons? Faramir would not have assumed the Kingship of Gondor, so the realm would have remained ruled by a steward 'until the King come again'.