And Eru Smiled

[Lúmen Rómello]

And here's the promised post.

The Question: What does Eru mean when he says to Melkor "no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite"?

The Answer: It's simple, really. Since Eru made all things from his thought, especially the Ainur themselves, anything the Ainur or anything else created does has its ultimate source in him, since he gave them the powers and very existence which permitted them to do whatever it was that they did.

-LR































No, that's not all of my answer. I'm just being a jackass (something I'm very good at ).

I had promised to use H-I's definitions of evil, pure evil, source, uttermost source, and Eru in this answer. His definitions of evil and pure evil seem especially true, particularly in a monotheistic system, which Eä most certainly is. In addition, Iarwain's hypothesis about what Eru is saying:

Originally Posted by Iarwain

If he is saying that all creation is a part of him and that nothing can be done outside his will, then we have a Middle-Earth with a destiny. If he is saying that there is no pure evil and that evil actions will ultimately (and unintentionally) bear good fruit, then we have a fascinating world to discuss.

serves as very fertile ground for a discussion of Eä's destiny and the places of free will and (dare I say it?) predestination in it. I'm going to address Iarwain's two hypotheses in order.

First, this one:

If he is saying that all creation is a part of him and that nothing can be done outside his will, then we have a Middle-Earth with a destiny.

For all intents and purposes, I agree with this statement. However, it's time to flesh out my logic for agreeing with it (as well as a caveat or two). First, I would hesitate to say that Eä, the Timeless Halls, and their inhabitants are part of Eru. I definitely think that he has control of them (as exhibited most dramatically by the Downfall of Númenor and the Bending of Arda), but that they are seperate from him. The Ainulindalë speaks of his 'making first' the Ainur, how they 'each comprehended only that part of the mind of Ilúvatar from which he came', and how, after the Music ended, 'he went forth from the fair regions that he had made for the Ainur'. None of this seems to speak of his creations being a part of him. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding Iarwain when he speaks of this, but it seems that he is positing a type of pantheism? Or am I misreading this when he's actually describing a type of panentheism? Speaking of which, what does anyone think about the possibility of Eru's omnipresence? I'm not sure if it's mentioned anywhere in the Legendarium.

I certainly agree that nothing can be done outside of Eru's will, however, this also needs a modifier. It is important to note that he seems to exist outside of time; indeed, it seems that Time is a part of Eä, since the places where the Ainur dwell are called "The Timeless Halls". If that's so, then Eru's will does not necessitate an immutable destiny for his creation. It is extremely probable that though the Music contained the plan and destiny of creation, it nevertheless allowed for personal choice by Ainur and Eruhini which shape the very course of Endor. The fact is that if Eru is outside of time and upholds his creation and illuminates it with the Secret Fire, then he can shape his creation's destiny at all times in response to the actions and requests of his creatures (assuming he can hear the requests of the Eruhini). To make a reference to the primary world (damn! I was trying to avoid these!), Lewis makes the point in his book Miracles that God can and does shape all of creation back to the beginning and forward to the end in response to prayers.

I'm going to have to wait till later on to discuss the second point and the actual statement by Eru, but this should suffice to serve as good discussion material. I'm certainly open to criticism about this and I hope that this will waken this thread up just a little.

Later, fellow deadites.

-LR.