Rocks, Hard Places, etc.... - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Feanor of the Peredhil · 07-19-2005, 07:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hilde Bracegirdle

Freewill is just another variable in Illuvatar's plan that might sway one way or another.

*Tries to organize thoughts coherently*

But... if Illuvatar's got a plan--

--and everything that anybody does is a variable--

--which means part of it--

--than your life is not your own, but is His.

If everything you do fits into Eru's game plan, than you've already been predicted by him. It's like a parents saying "You can have either carrots or peas with dinner." The kid has the "choice" to take whatever one, but it's still exactly what the parent wants.

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 07-19-2005, 07:41 AM

Cheers for the link lindil, I'd never read that thread before. I particularly enjoy Kalessin's post, second from the top. He/She said:

"It seems clear to me that Tolkien never resolved this level of philosophical problem, or indeed attempted to."

He was writing awesome books dealing in very difficult problems and there are always going to be people picking holes everywhere. Just think: Is there a contradiction in the mythology and if so, is this a negative?

mormegil · 07-19-2005, 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

*Tries to organize thoughts coherently*

But... if Illuvatar's got a plan--

--and everything that anybody does is a variable--

--which means part of it--

--than your life is not your own, but is His.

If everything you do fits into Eru's game plan, than you've already been predicted by him. It's like a parents saying "You can have either carrots or peas with dinner." The kid has the "choice" to take whatever one, but it's still exactly what the parent wants.

But isn't that what free will is? Choice! It is irrelevant that it plays into Eru's master plan if you have a choice to do good or evil then you have a choice.

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 07-19-2005, 07:43 AM

"Is there Free will in Middle-earth?

Yes.

No.

Probably both."

You're confusing me Fordim, stop confusing me!

Feanor of the Peredhil · 07-19-2005, 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mormegil

But isn't that what free will is? Choice! It is irrelevant that it plays into Eru's master plan if you have a choice to do good or evil then you have a choice.

Not exactly. You can't have both fate and free will. If you've got a fate (like Turin, or Aragorn), then you can make as many choices as you want, but you'll still end up having to face this fate. Especially Turin, come to think of it. "Master of Doom, by doom mastered." It didn't matter what choices he made, he couldn't escape his doom. It completely negates the idea of free will if half the occurences of your life are already plotted out for you. You can't say "I don't want to experience this" if it's guaranteed to happen by the Allmighty. You don't have a say in the matter any more.

When I was a bit younger, I had a certain "let's not call it prayer... mantra's a better word for it".

Quote:

Thank you for free will, if that exists, for making life interesting,

Quote:

And thank you for fate, if that exists, for making life easy.

alatar · 07-19-2005, 08:31 AM

As Eru is omniscient, one might think that there is no free will. Plus, as the Music was sung before Arda was made, it would also seem that everything has been plotted/doomed/fated.

Not sure that I agree.

My other favorite author, Frank Herbert (of the Dune series) explored the free will/fate/god question. He posited that a god may want to allow true 100% free will just to relieve the boredom. It would be like watching the same movie night after night - wouldn't it be cool if one time, while watching ROTK EE, Gandalf's staff doesn't break? But I digress.

Anyway, could not Eru have set up the 'rules of the game' (stuff falls down not up, time moves forward, etc), created the original set of actors (valar, maia, elves, men, etc), established his own plan (introduction of the elves at X year, men to show up later, etc) and then sit back and watch how it all plays out?

The evidence gleaned from the actions of Melkor (rebellion), Aule (dwarves), men, etc, would point to free will. Now, it's still Eru's game, and at any time he can change the rules, dabble, or destroy the whole show as he desires. The actors therein can do whatever they feel is the correct choice, but Eru, being the smart god that he is, knows that with some probability that certain outcomes are assured.

Think about it. In the beginning we have only one vala go sour. What if more went against Eru? Would Arda have become so lopsidedly bad that Eru's game would have been spoiled and so he would have had to start over.

Hmmm. What evidence do we have that this time is the first and only time that Eru played the game? What if he tried some other combinations, gathered data, experimented more then finally got a game set up that would provide maximum entertainment/glory while also maximizing the free will of the actors therein?

Gods, being without limits by definition, can do these kind of things...

Durelin · 07-19-2005, 09:52 AM

Yes, there is free will.

What would the point be if there wasn't? What kind of story would LotR be? What would Aragorn, Frodo, Boromir, Smeagol, or any character matter if they did not have a choice when it came to their destinies? If Frodo was destined to take the Ring to Mordor, then what is there to admire in his character? If he didn't choose to be the hero, if he was simply forced by destiny or whatever/whoever, does he have any real strength of character at all? The same goes for Aragorn and accepting his kinglyness. If he had no choice, where's his strength and majesty that we all can admire? And what about Boromir: was he simply destined to be desirous of the ring? If so, then what need is there for him to feel guilt at all? Where's the human struggle?!

And I could never accept the fact that Smeagol had to kill Deagol and become the horrible wretch of Gollum...

And now I think of Galadriel and her little temptation. She had a choice. She held a great power, and any true power can be used for both good or evil (though really there's no happy medium). What would the point be if she didn't have the option of using it to make herself powerful, and thus with rather dark intentions? It wouldn't be a true power, as the highest power will lie at the peak of a mountain, at a dangerous height, where it is easy to fall.

No free will, no choice... I want my human struggle!

-Durelin

Feanor of the Peredhil · 07-19-2005, 09:58 AM

I'm not saying that I don't want free will. Heck... I really, really want it. More than you can guess. I'm just saying that I don't see how you can possibly have both free will AND fate. One negates the other.

Durelin · 07-19-2005, 10:09 AM

You can choose your own fate.

It's like a game. Like, pick door number 1 to get destiny number 1, door number 2 to get destiny number 2, door number 3 to get destiny number 7...or something confusing like that. And basically there's just a lot of doors. Of course most of them you don't even notice.

Perhaps Illuvatar put a big flashy arrow pointing to whichever door led Frodo to taking on his quest.

You ever heard your mom tell you, 'You make a better door than a window' while standing in front of the TV? Yeah, apply that to this whole door thing too and then we'll really have some fun.

I expect Frodo could've chosen window number 17 as an escape route.

Edit: **Disclaimer**Durelin is simply amusing herself**Disclaimer**

Hilde Bracegirdle · 07-19-2005, 10:24 AM

I really don’t think that just because something seems bound to happen that it over shadows free will. Neither do I think that just because a prediction comes true that a person is predestined. Some types of personalities are inclined to follow a course that is predictable, and some are influenced by what is expected of them (or what they expect of themselves). This does not mean that their choices are useless, or that they are confined by the will of another.

View Poll Results: Is there free will in Middle-Earth?
Yes	29	58.00%
No	3	6.00%
Probably both	18	36.00%
Voters: 50. You may not vote on this poll

07-19-2005, 07:41 AM	#2
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,859	Cheers for the link lindil, I'd never read that thread before. I particularly enjoy Kalessin's post, second from the top. He/She said: "It seems clear to me that Tolkien never resolved this level of philosophical problem, or indeed attempted to." He was writing awesome books dealing in very difficult problems and there are always going to be people picking holes everywhere. Just think: Is there a contradiction in the mythology and if so, is this a negative? __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

07-19-2005, 07:43 AM	#4
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,859	"Is there Free will in Middle-earth? Yes. No. Probably both." You're confusing me Fordim, stop confusing me! __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

07-19-2005, 08:31 AM	#6
alatar Doubting Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Heaven's basement Posts: 2,466	As Eru is omniscient, one might think that there is no free will. Plus, as the Music was sung before Arda was made, it would also seem that everything has been plotted/doomed/fated. Not sure that I agree. My other favorite author, Frank Herbert (of the Dune series) explored the free will/fate/god question. He posited that a god may want to allow true 100% free will just to relieve the boredom. It would be like watching the same movie night after night - wouldn't it be cool if one time, while watching ROTK EE, Gandalf's staff doesn't break? But I digress. Anyway, could not Eru have set up the 'rules of the game' (stuff falls down not up, time moves forward, etc), created the original set of actors (valar, maia, elves, men, etc), established his own plan (introduction of the elves at X year, men to show up later, etc) and then sit back and watch how it all plays out? The evidence gleaned from the actions of Melkor (rebellion), Aule (dwarves), men, etc, would point to free will. Now, it's still Eru's game, and at any time he can change the rules, dabble, or destroy the whole show as he desires. The actors therein can do whatever they feel is the correct choice, but Eru, being the smart god that he is, knows that with some probability that certain outcomes are assured. Think about it. In the beginning we have only one vala go sour. What if more went against Eru? Would Arda have become so lopsidedly bad that Eru's game would have been spoiled and so he would have had to start over. Hmmm. What evidence do we have that this time is the first and only time that Eru played the game? What if he tried some other combinations, gathered data, experimented more then finally got a game set up that would provide maximum entertainment/glory while also maximizing the free will of the actors therein? Gods, being without limits by definition, can do these kind of things... __________________ There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.

07-19-2005, 09:58 AM	#8
Feanor of the Peredhil La Belle Dame sans Merci Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: perpetual uncertainty Posts: 5,517	I'm not saying that I don't want free will. Heck... I really, really want it. More than you can guess. I'm just saying that I don't see how you can possibly have both free will AND fate. One negates the other. __________________ peace

07-19-2005, 09:52 AM	#7
Durelin Estelo dagnir, Melo ring Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 3,063	Yes, there is free will. What would the point be if there wasn't? What kind of story would LotR be? What would Aragorn, Frodo, Boromir, Smeagol, or any character matter if they did not have a choice when it came to their destinies? If Frodo was destined to take the Ring to Mordor, then what is there to admire in his character? If he didn't choose to be the hero, if he was simply forced by destiny or whatever/whoever, does he have any real strength of character at all? The same goes for Aragorn and accepting his kinglyness. If he had no choice, where's his strength and majesty that we all can admire? And what about Boromir: was he simply destined to be desirous of the ring? If so, then what need is there for him to feel guilt at all? Where's the human struggle?! And I could never accept the fact that Smeagol had to kill Deagol and become the horrible wretch of Gollum... And now I think of Galadriel and her little temptation. She had a choice. She held a great power, and any true power can be used for both good or evil (though really there's no happy medium). What would the point be if she didn't have the option of using it to make herself powerful, and thus with rather dark intentions? It wouldn't be a true power, as the highest power will lie at the peak of a mountain, at a dangerous height, where it is easy to fall. No free will, no choice... I want my human struggle! -Durelin

07-19-2005, 10:09 AM	#9
Durelin Estelo dagnir, Melo ring Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 3,063	You can choose your own fate. It's like a game. Like, pick door number 1 to get destiny number 1, door number 2 to get destiny number 2, door number 3 to get destiny number 7...or something confusing like that. And basically there's just a lot of doors. Of course most of them you don't even notice. Perhaps Illuvatar put a big flashy arrow pointing to whichever door led Frodo to taking on his quest. You ever heard your mom tell you, 'You make a better door than a window' while standing in front of the TV? Yeah, apply that to this whole door thing too and then we'll really have some fun. I expect Frodo could've chosen window number 17 as an escape route. Edit: DisclaimerDurelin is simply amusing herselfDisclaimer

07-19-2005, 10:24 AM	#10
Hilde Bracegirdle Relic of Wandering Days Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: You'll See Perpetual Change. Posts: 1,480	We all are going to die sometime. Does that mean we don’t have free will? I really don’t think that just because something seems bound to happen that it over shadows free will. Neither do I think that just because a prediction comes true that a person is predestined. Some types of personalities are inclined to follow a course that is predictable, and some are influenced by what is expected of them (or what they expect of themselves). This does not mean that their choices are useless, or that they are confined by the will of another.