The Treason of Isengard: Eru's Plan?

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

A muon does not have a will. (SoN)

I know, but I'm using some example that will most closely resembles what I think really happens. The muon's action, after all, is foreseeable.

If the Creator knows before a Man is born what that Man will do, how does it follow that the Man controls his own destiny? (SoN)

The Creator is both omnitemporal and extratemporal. He sees Time not as how we see. We're ignorant of how Someone can see Time all at once. But that is how He views it.

EDIT: Maybe my use of the words "foreknowledge" and "prescience" is throwing things up. I should perhaps just use "knowledge"--unprefixed--when referring to Eru.

[Son of Númenor]

I just don't see how I have a free will if God knows I am going to jump off a cliff and die when I'm 23.

[Formendacil]

If the idea I am getting from Nilp has survived the data transfer intact, perhaps it is not the concept of freewill that should perhaps be questioned, but that of time...

How do we KNOW that in the cosmic scheme of things, the Music took place BEFORE Arda?

Time, as we know it, was iniated at the same time as the beginning of Arda. The two are congruent. If, therefore, Arda's matter is wholly separate from the dwelling of Eru, in that it is a part of Ea, and thus a universe self-contained, is it's time not self-contained?

Therefore, it could follow that "time" has no meaning in the Halls of Eru, and that the Music can be said to be playing simultaneously before, during, and after the Events that mirror it in Arda.

If this is the case, how do we not know that the Music being orchestrated by Eru is not being dictated by the actions of Men in Arda? Or that the actions of the Ainur in and out of Arda are congruent because they are one and the same- at the SAME time?

Questions, questions... Always questions...

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

But yours is actually better.

[HerenIstarion]

Originally Posted by SoN

the world is the confines set by the Music

Good!

Originally Posted by SoN

If the Creator knows before a Man is born what that Man will do, how does it follow that the Man controls his own destiny?

Less so - Knowing is not forcing. Imagine that me and you were sitting for a day in a room, with nothing else to do but to watch each other. Seeing your past actions I may deduce your future actions with a good deal of accuracy. Per instance, if you haven't drunk for the whole morning, and smoked excessively, I do know that at one point soon you'll rise and go to the tap to pour yourself a glass of water. Presently, you do so - did I, who knew you would do that, actually force you to do it?

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Time, as we know it, was iniated at the same time as the beginning of Arda. The two are congruent. If, therefore, Arda's matter is wholly separate from the dwelling of Eru, in that it is a part of Ea, and thus a universe self-contained, is it's time not self-contained?

Quite a question, that. That's why Music is rails analogy may work

[davem]

Originally Posted by Nilpaurion

Davem, you're arguing against a point that no one is making.

Posts 16,18,20,23, 25, 27, 33, 39, 54, 55 are what I'm arguing against...

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Time, as we know it, was iniated at the same time as the beginning of Arda. The two are congruent. If, therefore, Arda's matter is wholly separate from the dwelling of Eru, in that it is a part of Ea, and thus a universe self-contained, is it's time not self-contained?

I think this is the point. There may have been process 'before' Arda was created - there were 'movements' in the Music which happened sequentially, but 'Time' only came in with Ea.

Is the 'Music' limited to what happened pre Ea? or does it include the 'performance' of the Music within Time? You cannot speak of a 'before' if there was no Time.

Thus, Arda is also the Music from one point of view. It is the same performance as Ainulindale in a different form. Yet, even within the original Music Men & Elves are introduced by Eru, & so, the freedom of action of Men is present. So, all is not set out in the Music sung by the Ainur. The Music itself is not complete & defined as some of the things sung will not happen. Ea is the same performance within the field of time, not a 'secondary' one. There is neither predestination in the Ainulindale nor in Ea, because they are both aspects of the same thing. I think once you move away from 'linear' thinking, 'before' (=Ainulindale) & 'after' (Ea) & think of the same event taking place in eternity & in Time, the problem disappears. When Tolkien refers to the 'echo' of the Music being heard in water, for instance, I don't think this refers to an 'echo' from the 'past', but an 'echo' 'down' from eternity, where the Music is taking place 'simultaneously'. An Ainur like Melkor is both in eternity singing the Music & performing it within Ea. Men are present in Ea, but they are also present in Eternity, introduced into the Cosmic Music by Eru. Being there, their presence changes the Music in both places/states.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

I just don't see how I have a free will if God knows I am going to jump off a cliff and die when I'm 23. (SoN)

But what role, exactly, does God play in your suicide? He just knows it. He won't stop you if you really want to do it. As I said, you are other from God. Otherwise, he'd be better off playing with Lego figures.

God knows what we'll do, but it is we who actually go there.

Or, to quote the phantom on another thread (on how Eru's omniscience and free will can co-exist):

Perhaps Eru holds all the cards but chooses not to always look at them? Maybe He sits back and watches things unfold and shields Himself from His future knowledge except for in times when it is necessary?

Or perhaps He is somehow capable of knowing what is going to happen and being surprised by it at the same time?

Who knows? We're talking about a being who does not operate on the same plane as we do.

It's possible that if Eru himself answered the free will question we would lack the capacity to understand the explanation. (tp)