The Treason of Isengard: Eru's Plan?

[burrahobbit]

My point has been missed again. You can add to and change the performance if you are actually present at it, but let's keep in mind here that this isn't just The Music, and it isn't The Music of Men or The Music of Elves, it is the Music of the Ainur: The Ainulindale. The Children of Iluvatar, being born after the creation of the world, were not present at its creation. Whatever actions Men may take are outside of the bounds of the Music, but they do not change the Music. The position of Men may be unique, but they are not so potent as to change the very fabric of the work of the gods.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

But Eru changed the Music with his new theme. Could it be that this new theme "inserts" the changes in the Music of the Ainur he intended for Men to do?

Of course, this silly post introduces the battle of prescience and predestination.

[burrahobbit]

Could it be that this new theme "inserts" the changes in the Music of the Ainur he intended for Men to do?

Possibly. I doubt it gets into specifics though, as that would go counter to the whole freedom thing that Tolkien talked about. It might be "Men will be important for this andthis reason" but it is impossible to say really.

[HerenIstarion]

Originally Posted by burrahobbit

My point has been missed again

Mine as well (see post 25)

You seem to be on two extreme ends of the rope I try to hop over in the middle of

Performance analogy may be bended just enough to suit my needs, though

Indeed, going beyond something does not imply that something is changed at all.

If you look at men and elves as audience in the concert hall, than elves would be spectators who have no other choice but to sit the concert out to the end, while men may walk out of it any time the wish. Or, even, are given chance to listen to one part only and than are quickly tossed out of the hall. While seated, each spectator is free to merely listen, or to sing along or to whistle out his/her dissapproval. If elves walk out of the hall, they find that they are not allowed to walk to the actual street, but have some time on their own in the vestibule and are requested to go back in after a while (unless they were tossing eggs at the stage. Than they sit it out in the vestibule till the final curtain)

But in order for the analogy not to be lopsided as it is, let us add that by the end of the performance the audience is requested to ascend the stage and join in the chorus. And while elves sit in there waiting for the final curtain to go down, not even sure that after the last chord of the concert master of ceremonies will ask them to ascend at all, the men, once tossed out, find to their surprise that, though they left the concert hall, they are lead round by back streets to enter it from the backside and be arranged in the backstage in order to strike a chord once requested, though audience in the hall does not see them yet behind the backs of the main performers. And, for the 'shaping', they also find that though they are invited, they are free to refuse and not go round backstreets, but go and have a milkshake in the nearest McDonalds instead.

Elven freedom in the case is ascend/not ascend, and while actual concert is still on, listen/block one's ears in the corner of the hall and whistle out loud

Some of the former performers are there in the hall too (Istari - human forms). Saruman is free to whistle and throw rotten eggs at the stage, but is equally free to abstain from activity as described, and is urged towards option two by Gandalf, who actually is singing along, not merely listening

[burrahobbit]

Heren-Istarion wins. Discussion is over.

[davem]

Originally Posted by burrahobbit

My point has been missed again. You can add to and change the performance if you are actually present at it, but let's keep in mind here that this isn't just The Music, and it isn't The Music of Men or The Music of Elves, it is the Music of the Ainur: The Ainulindale. The Children of Iluvatar, being born after the creation of the world, were not present at its creation. Whatever actions Men may take are outside of the bounds of the Music, but they do not change the Music. The position of Men may be unique, but they are not so potent as to change the very fabric of the work of the gods.

And the Numenorean's assault on Valinor? Was that event, & the changing of the shape of the World which followed it - a direct result of Eru's intervention - predicted in the Music or not? If it was then how could the Numenoreans be held morally accountable for their actions? If it wasn't & was a result of their freedom to act beyond the Music then it shows that Men can change the Music, even to the extent of changing the world itself...

[Son of Númenor]

The root of this debate is semantics. Davem, change the word 'Music' to 'Eä' and your argument holds up. It is illogical to suggest that because the Numenorean invasion of Valinor was not predicted in the Music the act somehow altered the composition of the Music. Once the Music was laid down in Eru's halls it ceased to be changeable, in the same way that fans cannot go back and edit a live concert from three days ago. You are looking at the Music as a fluid piece that interacts with the physical manifestation of itself; burra is rightly looking at it as an event which took place before Eä was created.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Son of Númenor

The root of this debate is semantics. Davem, change the word 'Music' to 'Eä' and your argument holds up. It is illogical to suggest that because the Numenorean invasion of Valinor was not predicted in the Music the act somehow altered the composition of the Music. Once the Music was laid down in Eru's halls it ceased to be changeable, in the same way that fans cannot go back and edit a live concert from three days ago. You are looking at the Music as a fluid piece that interacts with the physical manifestation of itself; burra is rightly looking at it as an event which took place before Eä was created.

Where is the textual evidence for the Music being unchangeable? Eru says none may alter the Music in His despite, not that it is unchangeable at all. I have to ask again, what's the point in creating the world if it is only to be a manifestation of the Music? Is Frodo merely a robot obeying a program?

All Tolkien's great heroes, the ones he focusses on, are Men or half Men. Hurin, Huor, Turin, Tuor, Aragorn, Frodo, etc or, the classic example to my mind - Earendel. Earendel succeeds in finding his way to the West because he is half mortal & therefore not completely under the ban of the Valar. Men save the world because they can act beyond the Music 'which is as fate to all things else.

Let's not forget that Men are not sung into being by the Ainur - they are Eru's unique creation & have a special destiny both within & beyond Arda. It seems to me that H-i's understanding of Eru's 'gift' to Men is the ability to 'drop dead' - if that was the case one could understand Andreth's anger. But it isn't. Men's destiny is to be the saviours of Arda, the key figures in the defeat of evil, & this is due only to the fact that they can act within the world beyond the confines set by the Music - Eru permitting.

I'm not saying that the destruction of Numenor & the subsequent change of the world altered the composition of the Music, but that it changed what was played. Music was the initial plan but the plan could be altered.

So, perhaps a 'poll'?

Who believes that all the inhabitants of Arda are robots with no control over what they do? I can't see that Tolkien did, otherwise he would not have introduced Men with their unique gift to act beyond the Music which is as fate to all things else. The very fact that they can act beyond the Music means that the Music is not all controlling fate to all the beings of Arda.

Textual evidence that proves beyond all doubt that everything is pre-determined by the Music, please?

I can see the argument that it is all 'semantics' - the 'Music' is what was sung by the Ainur & only that. Once it is made manifest & freedom of action (for Men at least) is introduced, we are no longer dealing with the Music. The Music is the blueprint or archetype which is the starting point. Except that the Music was never finished before it was made 'flesh' as Ea. It is equally possible to see Ea as the Music's continuing composition within the field of time & space. Thus, not everything which was 'speculated' in the Music would come to pass - some of the things which were (& which were part of the Music) would not come to fruition because of the changes introduced by Men - hence, the Music would be 'altered' even in its playing. Remember, the Ainulindale occured outside Time & we have no clear conception of how Time & Eternity relate in Tolkien's cosmology. What we are told is that at the 'End' the Music will be played 'aright' - implying it is an ongoing process, rather than a one-off event. The Ainulindale was a failed attempt to 'play' the Music, so was Ea - The True Music has not been played yet.

From this point of view I think its valid to say that there is an 'Ideal' Music which both Ainulindale & Ea are attempts to play, but neither of them are the Music in Eru's Mind. The Ainulindale may be changed - retrospectively - because the two events Ainulindale & Ea are attempts to produce something else - The Music in Eru's Mind. Events in 'Time' may 'echo' in Eternity & Eternity may be thereby 'altered'. Both playings are 'practice sessions'. I'm not sure 'before' & 'after' (in the sense of Ainulindale>Ea) is the right way to concieve of it. What Eru shows to the Ainur is not what the Valar find when they enter Ea, & their task is to manifest it as far as they can, to make the abstract concrete.

What is 'Music' anyway - they composition or the playing. If you play different notes, introduce new melodies, you change the 'Music'.

[Son of Númenor]

Davem, you're arguing against a point that no one is making.

can act within the world beyond the confines set by the Music - Eru permitting.

This is a redundancy: the world is the confines set by the Music. Yes, the free will of Men can alter Eä. That is not the same thing as altering the Music.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

This debate of Men changing the Music and changing Eä could be resolved if we think that Eru foreknew the changes Men would make when he made the Third Theme.

Of course, this would make some people think that Men do what Eru just sung/played, and therefore, they are just robots of an omnipotent, omniscient being.

But predestination and prescience are not one and the same. One can foreknow without actually laying the path for the event.

Since we are all time-bound beings here (unless someone's not speaking up) we need an example. If I see a muon, I know that in 2.2 microseconds, it will decay into an electron, a neutrino, and an antineutrino. Now, this foreknowledge of mine does not mean I did the actual decay, because the muon is wholly other from me. But I can respond to it by photographing the decay, or something else.

Now, how does this apply to the Music? Perhaps Eru, unbound by time, saw the future at the same time Ainulindalë raged on before him, and introduced a new theme, one based on the actions Men would take when confronted with a certain situation.

But does this mean Eru made Men do certain things? No! As I said, the muon is a thing wholly other from me. And to Eru, Men are other.

Then Aulë took up a great hammer to smite the Dwarves . . . But . . . the voice of Ilúvatar said: 'Thy offer I accepted even as it was made. Dost thou not see that these things have now a life of their own, and speak with their own voices? Else they would not have flinched from thy blow, nor from any command of thy will.'

TS 2 - emphasis mine

Post-traumatic possum. H-I, I shall be reacting to your "Two Wills" post soon.

[Son of Númenor]

A muon does not have a will.

If the Creator knows before a Man is born what that Man will do, how does it follow that the Man controls his own destiny?