The Treason of Isengard: Eru's Plan?

[burrahobbit]

How so?

Thus was the fate of Túrin woven [...] with the fate of the Silmarils and of the Elves -J.R.R. Tolkien, The Silmarillion chapter 21

Etc.

(Expecting a statement like 'You are amazingly and fundamentally wrong',made with no back up, to be accepted as part of a rational argument is a bit like me saying 'You are amazingly and fundamentally a horse.

But I am clearly not a horse.

But if you walk East long enough you'll land in California, I surmise?

No, I would end up in the Atlantic Ocean, several thousand miles away from California.

In a mighty assault Morgoth is defeated, but as his last effort at defending his stronghold, the band of Balrogs issues from the Iron Gate to challange the foremost party of the assailants lead by Fëanor. Ultimately, Balrogs are swept, but Fëanor is killed.

I'm thinking that Feanor would be so nice, though, that he couldn't even bear to kill an orc if he had to, so he just stayed in Aman with the ladies and the children. Pacifism, you know? Besides, somebody has to be in charge while all of the other leaders are out killing things.

I don't see how such an ardent pacifist (a decision which he is morally and spiritually free to make) could ever be killed by balrogs in the Hither Lands.

[Formendacil]

So... is Feanor's death a part of the Music?

That is apparently what the question, with regards to that specific debate, would appear to be.

It has been suggested that the Fate of the Music is a "broad" guide and not a detail-determiner. If such is the case, then just HOW defined is the Fate that it forecasts?

It could well be that Feanor's Fate had nothing to do with his death. Perhaps his part in the grand scheme of Arda was merely the fashioning of the Silmarils and the preservation thereby of the Sacred Light.

If that is the case, then it does it matter if Feanor dies or not? His "fate" done, his part in the great scheme played, he could do anything. His death at the hands of the Balrogs is a direct consequence of his decision to leave Valinor, but was it fated? He COULD have stayed behind, and the Noldor have never left Valinor. Perhaps, then, he would have died in the War of Wrath, or perhaps he would have survived and gone home to wait until the day when the Silmarils were to be cracked open- which, by the way, would appear to another part of his fate, that at the end of time he will break open the Silmarils and rekindle the Two Trees.

The Devil's Advocate,

~Michael A. Joosten - Formendacil~

[Lyta_Underhill]

Which is another major problem - Turin is not bound by the Music. Is Glaurung? Turin is driven (by whom & why?) to overcome his 'fate', but in so doing he actually determines it. I'd say Turin's fate is not in the hands of Morgoth or anyone but himself. He clearly believes that he is not bound by the Music, that he can be free to live his own life, & that's exactly what he does. None of the things he suffers come from Morgoth or even directly from the Music. He is Master of (his) doom - & he is also mastered by it - by his own, self-wrought doom.

This is what happens when you worry too much about destiny, free will, etc... a good lesson to look at Turin!

Cheers!
Lyta

[davem]

Originally Posted by burrahobbit

But I am clearly not a horse.

And I'm clearly not wrong

I'm thinking that Feanor would be so nice, though, that he couldn't even bear to kill an orc if he had to, so he just stayed in Aman with the ladies and the children. Pacifism, you know? Besides, somebody has to be in charge while all of the other leaders are out killing things.

Why are you thinking that? We've no evidence that he would choose pacifism over obeying the will of the Valar. If his fate was to die in Endor he would go there & die, the issue is how he would get there & he clearly had the freedom to choose that. there are many ways he could have ended up there. As an Elf he is bound by the constraints of the Music to do certain things.[/QUOTE]

Thus was the fate of Túrin woven [...] with the fate of the Silmarils and of the Elves -J.R.R. Tolkien, The Silmarillion chapter 21

But who 'wove' his fate? Eru, or he himself?

But Illuvatar knew that Men, being set amid the turmoils of the powers of the world, would stray often, and would not use their gifts in harmony; and ie said, These too in their time shall find that all that they do redounds at the end only to the glory of my work.' Yet the Elves believe that Men are often a grief to Manwe, who knows most of the mind of Illuvatar; for it seems to the Elves that Men resemble Melkor most of all the Ainur, although he has ever feared and hated them, even those that served him.
It is one with this gift of freedom that the children of Men dwell only a short space in the world alive, and are not bound to it, and depart soon whither the Elves know not. (Of the Beginning of Days)

So, Men have the 'gift of freedom' to act beyond the Music within Arda. Their gift of freedom, like the Gift of Death (of which it is probably a part, as I said), is what makes them unique among all the inhabitants of Arda. They are free to act beyond the confines of the Music, but the price they pay for that freedom is that they cannot remain forever within the Circles of the World.

[burrahobbit]

We've no evidence that he would choose pacifism

Of course not. Feanor would never choose pacifism, but that isn't the point. What I am trying to say is that a person can not possibly be free to make moral decisions in a deterministic universe. The two ideas are incompatible. Either a person has a fate/free will or he doesn't. There may be some wiggle room, but if there is no possible way for you to avoid certain outcomes then you do not actually have a free will, and whatever the outcome is it is the desire of whoever/whatever it was the made the decision. The deterministic cosmology of Middle-earth is the land of the Turing Machine.

[davem]

Originally Posted by burrahobbit

Of course not. Feanor would never choose pacifism, but that isn't the point. What I am trying to say is that a person can not possibly be free to make moral decisions in a deterministic universe. The two ideas are incompatible. Either a person has a fate/free will or he doesn't. There may be some wiggle room, but if there is no possible way for you to avoid certain outcomes then you do not actually have a free will, and whatever the outcome is it is the desire of whoever/whatever it was the made the decision. The deterministic cosmology of Middle-earth is the land of the Turing Machine.

As an Elf/Valar/Maiar you have moral freedom to the extent that you may not be able to choose what you do but you can choose how you do it.

Also, the cosmology of Middle-earth is not deterministic - it would be if Men did not exist, but they do, & they can act outside the Music - 'which is as fate to all things else'.

Eru did not say that 'none may change the Music' - He said 'none may change the Music in My despite'. Men's 'gift' is the freedom to change the Music - within the bounds set by Eru - & those 'bounds' are not the Music per se, but the bounds He sets. Only Men have this freedom. Men are what stop Arda from being a deterministic universe - that's their purpose.

[burrahobbit]

[quuote]As an Elf/Valar/Maiar you have moral freedom to the extent that you may not be able to choose what you do but you can choose how you do it.[/quote]

That doesn't make any kind of sense. I'm going back to my Feanor as pacifist argument.

Eru did not say that 'none may change the Music' - He said 'none may change the Music in My despite'. Men's 'gift' is the freedom to change the Music - within the bounds set by Eru - & those 'bounds' are not the Music per se, but the bounds He sets.

So basically what you are saying is that Eru determines exactly what people can or can't do?

[davem]

Originally Posted by burrahobbit

That doesn't make any kind of sense. I'm going back to my Feanor as pacifist argument.

Why not? Feanor cannot choose to but to go back to Arda, but he can choose whether to go back as a rebel, or as a servant of the Valar - he could even be dragged back against his will. He can't alter the Music, but he can choose how much in harmony he is with it...

So basically what you are saying is that Eru determines exactly what people can or can't do?

Absolutely not. Eru does not determine exactly what people can or can't do. He will permit men to alter the Music to a certain degree, but will set bounds on those changes. He's a bit like a 'mod' - he doesn't determine what posters can or can't say, in the sense that he dictates what they say, but he makes sure they don't overstep the line - ie, He permits Isildur to bind the spirits of the Oathbreakers within Arda till they have fulfilled their oath, but He doesn't permit the Numenoreans to assail Valinor...

Where it gets interesting is that, because Men may alter the Music (with Eru's consent) then if Men do alter it, & Valar, Maiar & Elves are bound by it, Men are actually more 'powerful' than they are. Their 'freedom' would be limited not simply by the original Music, but by the (Eru permitted) changes introduced into the Music by Men....

[burrahobbit]

Where did you get the idea that Men alter the Music?