Red Flows the Sirannon Planning/Discussion Thread

[CaptainofDespair]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Well the fellowship of the ring set out in winter without so many problem and I have no idea who the Flash or Sonic the hedgehog are but I don't think I need to bwe patronised to that extent.

In fact I think Iwill withdraw from the game if this is the way it is going to be.

First, I am not patronizing you. The Flash and Sonic are cartoon characters who run really, really fast. I am merely making the point that unless Elves can run like them, Elven speed does not take much effect. in a military setting, as the weight of armor and pack animals would slow it down regardless.

Second, the Fellowship started out with very little. This is a military campaign, and as such, there are certain 'excesses' that accompany it. When you are running a war, you don't send troops into the field with nothing. Thus, they must be accompanied by many, many things, most of which cannot withstand a great deal of cold or heat, and also move relatively slowly. Also note, the Fellowship wasn't wandering about in armor, and bearing a wagon train to carry its supplies. A military expedition has such things. As for the climate the Fellowship started out in, they practically had to, so as both to get an early jump on Sauron, and to cater to stealth. An army on the march cannot afford stealth, as it needs supplies and is often too large to live off the land for extended periods of time.

[Alcarillo]

Do you really think it would take such a long time for 500 soldiers to travel 500 miles? One way of settling this argument is to look at the chronology of the Second Age in Appendix B of LotR.

3434 The host of the Alliance crosses the Misty Mountains. Battle of Dagorlad and defeat of Sauron. Siege of Barad-Dûr begins.

The Last Alliance contained much more than 500 soldiers, and travelled about the same distance (from the Misty Muntains near Imladris to Dagorlad) that our elves must travel in under one year, with time to fight and defeat Sauron, too. Also, the Last Alliace was gaining soldiers as it was travelling, from Moria and Lorien. The Last Alliance undoubtedly had a baggage train, but it does not seem to have had much of an effect. Also, our elves will have roads to travel along for most of the way; the Last Alliance mostly moved through wilderness. I'm guessing that it would take a few months, maybe half a year, for the Elves of Lindon to reach Ost-in-Edhil. If they start early there's a high liklihood they'll arrive before the siege begins. The Elves of Lindon could also be mounted, adding speed. (see the subject of food, below, for more about horses.)

Also, not all of their Elven advantages would be hampered or completely hampered by armor. Armor can be made light or carried in carts. An advance party can always retreat before being seen by the enemy. Pack animals do not always die in winter. Elves can always drape blankets across their animals' backs, and winters are not always harsh. Yes, the strongest elf can be killed by a few orcs, but the orcs will not have penetrated so deep into Eregion by this time, only attacking southern villages and maybe moving along the mountains. The elves can, as I have said before, retreat from orcs. They have the advantage of sight, and can see orcs before the orcs see them. The elves could move in small units, making retreats and detours even easier.

As too the problem of food, I doubt that 500 soldiers won't be able to meet villages along the way. Also, because they are on the move, they won't stay in areas for too long before moving on. If the elves are mounted, their horses only need some grass to eat. Grass is everywhere!

To close, not all of the fates that have been described will befall our elves. Mithalwen, please don't leave because of some exaggerated remarks.

[Nurumaiel]

I put up my first post along with my bio. I hope, Durelin, that you don't find it too short, lacking in detail, and etc.

To let you know, I'm leaving tomorrow for a camping trip and will be back on Tuesday the 19th.

Mithalwen, m'dearie, I was thrilled to think I was to be in a game with you... if you leave I shall make Falco Headstrong at the Green Dragon do something awful to you.

[CaptainofDespair]

Originally Posted by Alcarillo

Do you really think it would take such a long time for 500 soldiers to travel 500 miles? One way of settling this argument is to look at the chronology of the Second Age in Appendix B of LotR.



The Last Alliance contained much more than 500 soldiers, and travelled about the same distance (from the Misty Muntains near Imladris to Dagorlad) that our elves must travel in under one year, with time to fight and defeat Sauron, too. Also, the Last Alliace was gaining soldiers as it was travelling, from Moria and Lorien. The Last Alliance undoubtedly had a baggage train, but it does not seem to have had much of an effect. Also, our elves will have roads to travel along for most of the way; the Last Alliance mostly moved through wilderness. I'm guessing that it would take a few months, maybe half a year, for the Elves of Lindon to reach Ost-in-Edhil. If they start early there's a high liklihood they'll arrive before the siege begins. The Elves of Lindon could also be mounted, adding speed. (see the subject of food, below, for more about horses.)

Also, not all of their Elven advantages would be hampered or completely hampered by armor. Armor can be made light or carried in carts. An advance party can always retreat before being seen by the enemy. Pack animals do not always die in winter. Elves can always drape blankets across their animals' backs, and winters are not always harsh. Yes, the strongest elf can be killed by a few orcs, but the orcs will not have penetrated so deep into Eregion by this time, only attacking southern villages and maybe moving along the mountains. The elves can, as I have said before, retreat from orcs. They have the advantage of sight, and can see orcs before the orcs see them. The elves could move in small units, making retreats and detours even easier.

As too the problem of food, I doubt that 500 soldiers won't be able to meet villages along the way. Also, because they are on the move, they won't stay in areas for too long before moving on. If the elves are mounted, their horses only need some grass to eat. Grass is everywhere!

To close, not all of the fates that have been described will befall our elves. Mithalwen, please don't leave because of some exaggerated remarks.

The Last Alliance was moving in great haste, for such was the need. They had already done the preparations, ect. But, also note, The Elves and Men had already been fighting Sauron by the time of the Last Alliance, and with many allies in other regions, it would not be hard to find a quick route through, especially when on the heels of Sauron's retreat. In this case, however, Sauron is on the offensive, which makes a big difference, at least when it comes to military preparations. When your enemy is on the defensive, you have time to plan, and yet move in haste to catch them at their weakest. When on the offensive, you must plan as well, but you must be more thorough, for otherwise if you fail, you are doomed. Thus, haste is not the greatest course for a defender.

But, nevermind my rantings on such things. In any case, the whole thing matters not. Tis only a minute aspect. I just like to rant, a lot.

[Alcarillo]

Originally Posted by CaptainofDespair

The Last Alliance was moving in great haste, for such was the need. They had already done the preparations, ect. But, also note, The Elves and Men had already been fighting Sauron by the time of the Last Alliance, and with many allies in other regions, it would not be hard to find a quick route through, especially when on the heels of Sauron's retreat. In this case, however, Sauron is on the offensive, which makes a big difference, at least when it comes to military preparations. When your enemy is on the defensive, you have time to plan, and yet move in haste to catch them at their weakest. When on the offensive, you must plan as well, but you must be more thorough, for otherwise if you fail, you are doomed. Thus, haste is not the greatest course for a defender.

But, nevermind my rantings on such things. In any case, the whole thing matters not. Tis only a minute aspect. I just like to rant, a lot.

And our elves won't move as quickly as possible to Ost-in-Edhil? They don't know when or if the city will come under attack. I would move soldiers as quickly as possible in any unknown situation. After all, they don't receive messages from the city regularly. Have they not already prepared in Lindon? It may take a month or so to prepare, but I wouldn'y include this in the actual traveling time. The elves have no hostile enemies until they reach Eregion, and even then there are villages that would aid them. Also, Orcs would not attack during the day. This would provide a mostly unhindered journey. At night the elves would need to keep watch and some soldiers should be awake at all hours, but most major Orc forces are busy in southern Eregion, with their own agendas and plans and villages to terrify. The Orcs don't know that the elves are coming from Lindon. I'd say that four to five months is a good time frame. Six months if something goes awry.

[CaptainofDespair]

Originally Posted by Alcarillo

And our elves won't move as quickly as possible to Ost-in-Edhil? They don't know when or if the city will come under attack. I would move soldiers as quickly as possible in any unknown situation. After all, they don't receive messages from the city regularly. Have they not already prepared in Lindon? It may take a month or so to prepare, but I wouldn'y include this in the actual traveling time. The elves have no hostile enemies until they reach Eregion, and even then there are villages that would aid them. Also, Orcs would not attack during the day. This would provide a mostly unhindered journey. At night the elves would need to keep watch and some soldiers should be awake at all hours, but most major Orc forces are busy in southern Eregion, with their own agendas and plans and villages to terrify. The Orcs don't know that the elves are coming from Lindon. I'd say that four to five months is a good time frame. Six months if something goes awry.

There is a difference. The Last Alliance was already at war against Sauron. They moved with haste to beat Sauron, having already crippled him in Eriador. Our elven army is not necessarily at war, directly at least. It is still 'entering' the conflict. If the army was smart, it would move with caution, especially into an unknown situation. In some cases, Eregion might be considered a necessary casualty. The losses sad, but a force capable of withstanding Sauron is still needed, and thus the loss of Eregion is necessary to prevent further destruction. Though, that is hypothetical . That would mean the Elven army is a mere rescue force, to pick up the survivors.

Also, who said Sauron only sent orcs to destroy Eregion? He does have the Easterling tribes to force into service. Not a lot, and maybe unlikely, but they could be there, as pure NPCs to harry the army.

[Durelin]

In fact I think Iwill withdraw from the game if this is the way it is going to be.

Ummm...Well, I'm sorry...

It's just another time issue, and we can work it out however everyone thinks it should be worked out. I'm not a military genius, and I am not at all an organized person, and I have no sense of time. But, this is the kind of discussion (well, mostly...I was thinking more discussion than arguing, but...) that I wanted. I need help with these sorts of things; I'm not at all too full of myself to say that I do. Perhaps that is asking too much, asking for help, but it isn't just my game: the game belongs to everyone who is taking part in it.

So if you think it proper for the Elves of Lindon to arrive much earlier, that is fine with me. If you want them to depart from Lindon later, that's fine with me too.

It's all up to everyone here...and it disturbs me to find that everyone seems to be quite offended or something...this is just discussion, and this is just a game. Please...I beg of you that you take it a little more lightly.

And all you have to do is let me know if you want me to adjust something. I expect there to be problems with what I come up with, so it's as simple as just letting me know that.

Thank you, and sorry for my absence...I'll be back to more regular posting very soon.

-Durelin

[Alcarillo]

Okay, how much time does everybody think the elves of Lindon should take? CaptainofDespair is pushing for caution, and I think that haste is best. Perhaps cautious haste is best, or hasty caution. I say four to five months. What does everybody else say and think? Let's not let this become a two-person shooting match.

[Durelin]

Sounds quite reasonable.

Who's shooting?