Red Flows the Sirannon Planning/Discussion Thread

[CaptainofDespair]

Originally Posted by Envinyatar

My point is, though, If the army of 500 Elves leaves in late 1695 (And 1695 is the date set by Tolkien for Elrond to be sent), surely it will not take them over a year to reach Eregion, which is what the arrival in early 1697 would mean.

However, if that is what you wish to do - then please let me know.

The Armies of the First Crusade took roughly a year to reach the Holy Land. So, it is possible. Any army, despite the size, will be slowed down to a crawl. There are far too many obstacles for everything to go over without a hitch. No march, no matter how well planned, runs into problems which slow it down. And, from what you are suggesting, there is very little planning involved, as that takes massive amounts of time. Thus, if we follow even your leisurely pace, it will be instantly doomed, and everyone would know it. Haste makes waste.

The Elves aren't military idiots, and would know better. And with the Council acting late in 1695, and with winter approaching, it would be extremely difficult to muster a force with the supplies and other necessities required, as well as start the march itself. The march itself, to avoid winter obstacles, would start as soon as spring begins, or possibly just prior. Before that, the scouting and supply gathering must be done, which is a feat unto itself, and takes many weeks, if not months to do. Also, the troops to be sent must be mustered, as I doubt they sit around like Clone Troopers waiting for orders.

Anyhow, to save you all from my rant, I will cut to the chase. A year or more is too long, though quite possible, dependent upon problems. The two month, arrive in early 1696 option is viable, but highly, highly unlikely...not to mention hasty, which leads to doom rather quickly. Thus, I suggest a middle road, of maybe 6 months, with the Elves leaving in early spring of 1696, possibly late winter, and arriving by the end of summer in 1696. Sauron’s siege, most likely having already begun, would not be difficult to breach from the rear, to enter the city and bolster the defenses. The force, being too small, could not lift the siege, but would provide the defensive ‘bonus’ capable of continuing a siege, as it would provide moral support, military support, and possibly extra food stuffs and weapons/armor to provide the defenders and inhabitants the ability to live on.

But, in the end, this is up to Durelin.

[Mithalwen]

But surely it is nowhere near as far from Hollin to Eregion as from England to the Holy Land and the feet of the elves are swift and tireless and they exist nicely on Lembas...... so they are not exact equivalent. Elf communities seem to exist more or less on fresh air generally . Also maybe there would be an advance party? Just thoughts....

[piosenniel]

Envinyatar

Please check your PM's

~*~ Pio

[CaptainofDespair]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

But surely it is nowhere near as far from Hollin to Eregion as from England to the Holy Land and the feet of the elves are swift and tireless and they exist nicely on Lembas...... so they are not exact equivalent. Elf communities seem to exist more or less on fresh air generally . Also maybe there would be an advance party? Just thoughts....

However, you neglect one crucial factor. They may be tireless, but they are not immune to cold. Disease maybe, but not the elements themselves. Also, they are not going by themselves, in a little group. They may be swift of foot, but they aren't The Flash or Sonic the Hedgehog. They will also need to manage pack animals, or something of that nature, as I doubt they are so swift and light when weighed down by armor, weapons, and other material for war. Thus, the special qualities are the Elves are diminished and expunged from in this case, as they really do not pertain. Either the Elves wear everything they bring, and are slowed down, or they deal with pack animals, which get sick and weak and die. Either way, they can't leave Lindon until the spring, or they risk losing everything in the winter months. Once the leave, however, they must deal with the enemy, and the burden of the pack animals.

An advanced party would be slaughtered. Too few of them to contend with anything. If the greatest elf warriors can be slain by orcs, so can some 'nobody' elves. Orcs aren't stupid ya know, especially when led by a Maiar.

Oh, and I was not referencing England. I tend to use the Holy Roman Empire, because it is just better.

[Envinyatar]

Thanks for all the input. I think I have it sorted out now, at least for my character.

Will follow the plan as referenced previously by Durelin.

- E -

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by CaptainofDespair

However, you neglect one crucial factor. They may be tireless, but they are not immune to cold. Disease maybe, but not the elements themselves. Also, they are not going by themselves, in a little group. They may be swift of foot, but they aren't The Flash or Sonic the Hedgehog. They will also need to manage pack animals, or something of that nature, as I doubt they are so swift and light when weighed down by armor, weapons, and other material for war. Thus, the special qualities are the Elves are diminished and expunged from in this case, as they really do not pertain. Either the Elves wear everything they bring, and are slowed down, or they deal with pack animals, which get sick and weak and die. Either way, they can't leave Lindon until the spring, or they risk losing everything in the winter months. Once the leave, however, they must deal with the enemy, and the burden of the pack animals.

An advanced party would be slaughtered. Too few of them to contend with anything. If the greatest elf warriors can be slain by orcs, so can some 'nobody' elves. Orcs aren't stupid ya know, especially when led by a Maiar.

Oh, and I was not referencing England. I tend to use the Holy Roman Empire, because it is just better.

Well the fellowship of the ring set out in winter without so many problem and I have no idea who the Flash or Sonic the hedgehog are but I don't think I need to bwe patronised to that extent.

In fact I think Iwill withdraw from the game if this is the way it is going to be.

[CaptainofDespair]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Well the fellowship of the ring set out in winter without so many problem and I have no idea who the Flash or Sonic the hedgehog are but I don't think I need to bwe patronised to that extent.

In fact I think Iwill withdraw from the game if this is the way it is going to be.

First, I am not patronizing you. The Flash and Sonic are cartoon characters who run really, really fast. I am merely making the point that unless Elves can run like them, Elven speed does not take much effect. in a military setting, as the weight of armor and pack animals would slow it down regardless.

Second, the Fellowship started out with very little. This is a military campaign, and as such, there are certain 'excesses' that accompany it. When you are running a war, you don't send troops into the field with nothing. Thus, they must be accompanied by many, many things, most of which cannot withstand a great deal of cold or heat, and also move relatively slowly. Also note, the Fellowship wasn't wandering about in armor, and bearing a wagon train to carry its supplies. A military expedition has such things. As for the climate the Fellowship started out in, they practically had to, so as both to get an early jump on Sauron, and to cater to stealth. An army on the march cannot afford stealth, as it needs supplies and is often too large to live off the land for extended periods of time.

[Alcarillo]

Do you really think it would take such a long time for 500 soldiers to travel 500 miles? One way of settling this argument is to look at the chronology of the Second Age in Appendix B of LotR.

3434 The host of the Alliance crosses the Misty Mountains. Battle of Dagorlad and defeat of Sauron. Siege of Barad-Dûr begins.

The Last Alliance contained much more than 500 soldiers, and travelled about the same distance (from the Misty Muntains near Imladris to Dagorlad) that our elves must travel in under one year, with time to fight and defeat Sauron, too. Also, the Last Alliace was gaining soldiers as it was travelling, from Moria and Lorien. The Last Alliance undoubtedly had a baggage train, but it does not seem to have had much of an effect. Also, our elves will have roads to travel along for most of the way; the Last Alliance mostly moved through wilderness. I'm guessing that it would take a few months, maybe half a year, for the Elves of Lindon to reach Ost-in-Edhil. If they start early there's a high liklihood they'll arrive before the siege begins. The Elves of Lindon could also be mounted, adding speed. (see the subject of food, below, for more about horses.)

Also, not all of their Elven advantages would be hampered or completely hampered by armor. Armor can be made light or carried in carts. An advance party can always retreat before being seen by the enemy. Pack animals do not always die in winter. Elves can always drape blankets across their animals' backs, and winters are not always harsh. Yes, the strongest elf can be killed by a few orcs, but the orcs will not have penetrated so deep into Eregion by this time, only attacking southern villages and maybe moving along the mountains. The elves can, as I have said before, retreat from orcs. They have the advantage of sight, and can see orcs before the orcs see them. The elves could move in small units, making retreats and detours even easier.

As too the problem of food, I doubt that 500 soldiers won't be able to meet villages along the way. Also, because they are on the move, they won't stay in areas for too long before moving on. If the elves are mounted, their horses only need some grass to eat. Grass is everywhere!

To close, not all of the fates that have been described will befall our elves. Mithalwen, please don't leave because of some exaggerated remarks.

[Nurumaiel]

I put up my first post along with my bio. I hope, Durelin, that you don't find it too short, lacking in detail, and etc.

To let you know, I'm leaving tomorrow for a camping trip and will be back on Tuesday the 19th.

Mithalwen, m'dearie, I was thrilled to think I was to be in a game with you... if you leave I shall make Falco Headstrong at the Green Dragon do something awful to you.

[CaptainofDespair]

Originally Posted by Alcarillo

Do you really think it would take such a long time for 500 soldiers to travel 500 miles? One way of settling this argument is to look at the chronology of the Second Age in Appendix B of LotR.



The Last Alliance contained much more than 500 soldiers, and travelled about the same distance (from the Misty Muntains near Imladris to Dagorlad) that our elves must travel in under one year, with time to fight and defeat Sauron, too. Also, the Last Alliace was gaining soldiers as it was travelling, from Moria and Lorien. The Last Alliance undoubtedly had a baggage train, but it does not seem to have had much of an effect. Also, our elves will have roads to travel along for most of the way; the Last Alliance mostly moved through wilderness. I'm guessing that it would take a few months, maybe half a year, for the Elves of Lindon to reach Ost-in-Edhil. If they start early there's a high liklihood they'll arrive before the siege begins. The Elves of Lindon could also be mounted, adding speed. (see the subject of food, below, for more about horses.)

Also, not all of their Elven advantages would be hampered or completely hampered by armor. Armor can be made light or carried in carts. An advance party can always retreat before being seen by the enemy. Pack animals do not always die in winter. Elves can always drape blankets across their animals' backs, and winters are not always harsh. Yes, the strongest elf can be killed by a few orcs, but the orcs will not have penetrated so deep into Eregion by this time, only attacking southern villages and maybe moving along the mountains. The elves can, as I have said before, retreat from orcs. They have the advantage of sight, and can see orcs before the orcs see them. The elves could move in small units, making retreats and detours even easier.

As too the problem of food, I doubt that 500 soldiers won't be able to meet villages along the way. Also, because they are on the move, they won't stay in areas for too long before moving on. If the elves are mounted, their horses only need some grass to eat. Grass is everywhere!

To close, not all of the fates that have been described will befall our elves. Mithalwen, please don't leave because of some exaggerated remarks.

The Last Alliance was moving in great haste, for such was the need. They had already done the preparations, ect. But, also note, The Elves and Men had already been fighting Sauron by the time of the Last Alliance, and with many allies in other regions, it would not be hard to find a quick route through, especially when on the heels of Sauron's retreat. In this case, however, Sauron is on the offensive, which makes a big difference, at least when it comes to military preparations. When your enemy is on the defensive, you have time to plan, and yet move in haste to catch them at their weakest. When on the offensive, you must plan as well, but you must be more thorough, for otherwise if you fail, you are doomed. Thus, haste is not the greatest course for a defender.

But, nevermind my rantings on such things. In any case, the whole thing matters not. Tis only a minute aspect. I just like to rant, a lot.