Gandalf Vs. The Witch King

[Essex]

double posting here, but getting back to replying to someone (Mansun) who raises some good points and in a friendly manner.

I did not say Gandalf would definately defeat the WK, even though he could if he was not restrained of his full power.

Then my comments above were not directed at you then, sorry.

I meant rather that the WK could not defeat Gandalf.

see my point below on the Istari from Unifinished tales. Why not?

The Wizard's role in the confrontation was to hold off the WK. Gandalf would have only revealed his true power if he had really been forced to and had no choice, as with his battle against a foe of his equal, the Balrog of Morgoth.

but would he be allowed? reading the unfinished tales, I would say he was not allowed to do this. If he was going to show his True power to defeat the sources of evil, why bother with the Witch King. Like I said above, why not just confront Sauron?

Even against the Balrog, the Wizard tried to avoid a direct battle by breaking the bridge at the feet of his enemy. He tried instead to hold off the Balrog.

totally agree. again he could not use his 'latent' powers, but tried to indirectly win by breaking the bridge. And, (to start another flurry of posts!), I'm rereading LOTR for the umpteenth time, and Gandalf's just told me about the Balrog's death. How exactly DID he die? It's not made clear. 'I threw down my enemy, and he fell from the high palce and broke the mountain-side where he smote it in his ruin'. Did the fall kill the balrog, or did Gandalf? Is this why Tolkien had them falling into water from the bridge, inasmuch to break their fall?

Sauron was defeated because his major source of power in the One Ring was destroyed. The WK was defeated because his spell of immunity to ordinary weapons was broken. But these circumstances cannot be applied to Gandalf - there is no way he could be defeated unless there was somebody of the required power to break him and his staff (i.e. like how Saruman was stripped of his power and removed from the Order by Gandalf the White).

to answer the point I've highlighted in bold above, here is part of the text from the Unfinished Tales, the Istari

For with the consent of Eru they sent members of their own high order, but clad in bodies of as of Men, real and not feigned, but subject to the fears and pains and weariness of earth, able to hunger and thirst and be slain.

Yes, he had his staff, (which we have had numerous posts on on this thread earlier on!) but, to me ata least, this seems to show that Gandalf COULD be slain by a weapon.

The Istari could be slain, but most likely only if they were first broken, i.e. Saruman. Then they would just become as vulnerable as the WK was when his spell was broken. But it still remains very questionable as to whether the WK had it in him to break Gandalf the White. Even the Balrog didn't manage that. So its no wonder why this thread has attracted a lot of debate, as most of us are of the opinion that the WK would have been held off to retreat from Minas Tirith in the Siege of Gondor.

And as for why the WK would definately not beat Gandalf? The reason being, Gandalf would surely reveal enough of his true power to be able to withstand the WK and not be killed by an inferior, albeit mighty, opponent. I think Eru would have allowed him to have done so much as that.

Otherwise, Eru may as well have sent Gandalf as an old wisened man with no power what-so-ever, if he were unable to fully defend himself against Sauron's servants! Remember, Gandalf the Grey defeated the Balrog, and held off all the Nine ring wraiths at night. So an enhanced Gandalf the White is a frightening prospect to all, save Sauron.

[Gurthang]

That's IT, Mansun! I think you've solved it!

Gandalf, while still the grey, was able to hold off all nine Ringwraiths on Weathertop. This would include the Witch-King. Meaning that not only could Gandalf defeat him, but he did defeat him. And surely Gandalf the White could take on a single Wraith much more easily.

Originally Posted by Gurthang

That's IT, Mansun! I think you've solved it!

Gandalf, while still the grey, was able to hold off all nine Ringwraiths on Weathertop. This would include the Witch-King. Meaning that not only could Gandalf defeat him, but he did defeat him. And surely Gandalf the White could take on a single Wraith much more easily.

True, but then again Aragorn also managed to hold off five of the Ringwraiths AT Weathertop, including the WK. These foes were not so powerful as fear made them, if you had the might to confront them.

Also, Aragorn would have almost certainly been slain by the Balrog had he come to square up to this foe on the Bridge in Moria. Yet he held off five of the Nazgul all at once.

Interesting.