Luthien & Galadriel

[Lalwendë]

Galadriel in the Middle earth of the Third Age is incredibly powerful because she is a 'big fish in a small pond'. She has sought power throughout her time in Middle earth, and eventually has come to set up her own realm, an enclave which she rules. She had the Elessar given to her by Celebrimbor, who then created something of even greater power, Nenya, as a gift to impress her. His gifts to her are each more powerful than the last, and he does this in the hope of winning her love (seemingly) by giving her more and more power.

We do not know to what levels of strength the Elves in the Undying Lands have grown while Galadriel is in exile, but we must assume that due to her exile she is in some way less than they are. Eru's intention is for the Elves to all live in the Undying Lands, and this is seen as natural for them - as seen in how they are reborn in the Halls of Mandos and to refuse this is considered wrong. In addition, she was one of those who left the Undying Lands to go to Middle earth, which was also a wrongdoing. Galadriel has willingly removed herself from the land where she is supposed to be, and therefore has done wrong so cannot be seen as 'good' as her kin who did not leave.

When she says that she will 'diminish' and return, she is saying that she will give up the power she has achieved in Middle earth and she will go back to the place where she will not be a ruler, a leader, someone of immense power. She will go back to the place where she is just one amongst many.

I don't know where this places her in terms of 'power' compared to Luthien, but then I think in Tolkien's world it is more about qualities than power. After all, we see how a humble Hobbit can destroy something supposedly more powerful. Is it more a question of who had the greater status?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I find the idea of Galadriel as a "big fish in a small pond" very appropriate, Lalwendë! However, I'm not sure I agree with this statement:

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Eru's intention is for the Elves to all live in the Undying Lands

Originally, the Elves were created to live in Middle-earth, just as Men were. There have been previous discussions on the decision of the Valar to bring them to the Undying Lands - was it unwise? If anything, I would say that Eru intended for them to remove to the Undying Lands after death. However, that is not the same thing as being "intended to live" there.

I too think that Lúthien's innate power, quality, and/or status, whichever way it's worded, puts her above Galadriel. However, Galadriel developed and strengthened the power she had and put it to the best use. That sounds a bit like the debates over the relative importance of inner characteristics and/or outer influences in what we become. The answer, as so often, is "both".

[daeron]

Luthien was selfish. Galadriel was not.
Atleast Luthien wouln't have done anything if foolish old Beren had not got himself in that sticky situation. And dragging Finrod too.

[davem]

This 'power' thing is a difficult question if it's limited to a question of 'force'. Certainly, there is an 'enhancement' of innate power which comes from having once dwelt in the Undying Lands - as we see with Glorfindel, who had seen the Two Trees: the Light of Aman was in his face.

Galadriel had also seen the Light of the Trees & the Light of Aman would have been in her face as well, & that Light was Holy, & evil things could not stand before it. However, unlike Glorfindel, Galadriel had never passed to Mandos to be purified of her sin in the Rebellion, so she would probably not have had his innate power sans Nenya.

Luthien, on the other hand, was the daughter of a Maiar, but had not dwelt in the West, or seen the Light of the Trees - though her father had.

More interesting, I think, is the fact that in the end, both Luthien & Galadriel reject power: Luthien chooses mortality, Galadriel to 'diminish'. Power is clearly not the be all & end all for either of them. Luthien chooses love (& mortality) over power & Galadriel to 'diminish' & go into the West, where rather than an absolute monarch she will become merely a returning penitent seeking forgiveness.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

According to daeron, Luthien was selfish and Galadriel was not.

But:

Luthien gave up everything she had for her lover.

Galadriel disobeyed the Valar because she wanted her own lands.

I'll just go and look up 'selfish' in the dictionary...

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by davem

More interesting, I think, is the fact that in the end, both Luthien & Galadriel reject power: Luthien chooses mortality, Galadriel to 'diminish'. Power is clearly not the be all & end all for either of them. Luthien chooses love (& mortality) over power & Galadriel to 'diminish' & go into the West, where rather than an absolute monarch she will become merely a returning penitent seeking forgiveness.

I just have to say that I think davem has put the question in a most appropriate way, to consider what definition of power is best applicable. If we consider the context of LotR and its attitude towards power, then I think we see that its is moral authority that is validated. Even amongst the warriors themselves, it is Aragorn's growth towards wisdom which gives him authority, just as it is Boromir's contrition which gives him his stature, even as he lays dying. Power in this context is the power over one's self, a personal control of the will, rather than the ability to dominate or control others.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Esty

Originally, the Elves were created to live in Middle-earth, just as Men were. There have been previous discussions on the decision of the Valar to bring them to the Undying Lands - was it unwise? If anything, I would say that Eru intended for them to remove to the Undying Lands after death. However, that is not the same thing as being "intended to live" there.

I am making my assumption based on the Valar summoning the Elves to the Undying Lands - they are asked to go there, and those who do not are portrayed as having less Light, as different. This to me implies that they are somewhat lower in status amongst Elves. In addition, they are expected to remain in the Undying Lands after death/rebirth:

Originally Posted by HoME X

The fea is single, and in the last impregnable. It cannot be brought to Mandos. It is summoned; and the summons proceeds from just authority, and is imperative; yet it may be refused.

Originally Posted by HoME X

Indeed the refusal of the summons is in itself a taint.

I wonder, if it is seen as correct that a fea should return to the Undying Lands, then should it not also be seen as correct that the living Elf ought to live there too, or at least, that this is the place where they can flourish. Once reborn, Elves are not permitted to return to Middle earth, and Glorfindel is the only example I can think of who was permitted to do this after the change of the world, suggesting that even if they did want to return to Middle earth they may have been prevented from doing so. As I say, this is how I have come to my assumption.

Originally Posted by Bethberry

If we consider the context of LotR and its attitude towards power, then I think we see that its is moral authority that is validated.

This 'power' that each character had, whether it was innate or learned/acquired, was used in different ways, but ultimately with the same results, i.e. both rejected that power. Luthien's power seems to be more innate, and what drives her to use it is love - is that selfish or self-less? Galadriel's power is enhanced, and she uses it strategically. We could also ask the same question about her use of power. That neither use it for committing evil deeds speaks volumes abut their characters; both of these characters could have put that power to use for immense personal gain. Instead, Luthien uses hers for the sake of Beren and Galadriel for the sake of Middle earth.

It might be interesting to compare Galadriel with Saruman, who also has great innate power, enhanced by his learning, but who does follow the temptation set before him, and ultimately his power is his downfall. Galadriel rejects the temptation - she shows the moral authority which Bethberry has noted.

So again, without drawing any conclusions on which character is the 'greatest' , it shows that both have even greater power as shown in that they can also reject their power when it is no longer needed.

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Galadriel had also seen the Light of the Trees & the Light of Aman would have been in her face as well, & that Light was Holy, & evil things could not stand before it. However, unlike Glorfindel, Galadriel had never passed to Mandos to be purified of her sin in the Rebellion, so she would probably not have had his innate power sans Nenya.

I think you are wrong in this. The light of Aman was not the power booster of the Calaquendi. I dunno you meant that in a literal sense. it was the mere presence of the Valar that enhanced the Elves because they were taught & instructed, thus they grew in skill & might compared to those who remained in ME. And also, the reincarnation of Glorfindel was only a lesser version of his former 1st age self. he wasn't as potent as he was in the 1st age. He was able to take down a Balrog before but in the 3rd age, he lets the ring wraiths go unchallenged (of course, Frodo was in emeregency at this point). So she was still greater than he & she already had a commanding stature even before shge left Aman.

We do not know to what levels of strength the Elves in the Undying Lands have grown while Galadriel is in exile, but we must assume that due to her exile she is in some way less than they are.

I doubt there were any new "developments" in the eldar of Valinor while she was in Exile. True strength & power grow & increase from troubled times. Valinor at this point have already sent the Istari so they're all pretty much peachy & dandy without a care in the world. Like the kiss-butt Vanyar who feast & sing before the Valars' thrones. On the other hand , the eldar who remained in Me have been fighting a loosing battle but none the less growing in might. The Three elven rings were the greatest (on par w/ the silmarills IMO) creation of the elves & unlike the Silmarills (mere hallowed ornaments), they could be utilized directly for the nenefit of the eldar. Tolkien has said that she was greatest ('cept for Feanor maybe) & although she was exiled, the rings of power certainly halted for a while the Doom of Mandos & the rustic fading of the Eldar. She herself did not swear an oath so the curse was not as cruel to her as it was to other great eldars of her time. And remember how much a ring of power can even permanently enhance someone such as Frodo (who began to percieve things more clearly than the wise). How much more for her who was mighty & endowed with a powerful ring? She might've seen many things in the future & grown more wise than asny other elf so I doubt she went back to Valinor as a "lesser" version than what she was. Quite the contrary in fact.