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08-12-2003, 03:38 PM | #1 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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The Silmarils
Why didnt Melkor/Morgoth destroy the Silmarils? I mean it would have helped him i the light of the trees of valinor were in them and the trees destroyed why did he not destroy them? There as got to be a point I'm missing somewhere
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08-12-2003, 03:50 PM | #2 |
Haunting Spirit
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He did have a reason for not destroying them. He, quite simply, wanted them, he envied Fëanor who ahd made them and wanted them forever to be his. Simply put, he was greedy, the light of the valar was the ahrdes strike he could deal them, so he did and in the chaos afterwards he snatched hte silmarils which became his fall, he drew the rage of the Noldor upon himself.
Welcome to the forum! Måns
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08-12-2003, 03:57 PM | #3 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Thanks for the welcome and telling me why Melkor did not destroy the Silmarils anyway I have another question Melkor surely had the strength to wipe out the Noldor he could have done it(maybe not easily) but he could have so why didnt he?
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08-12-2003, 04:01 PM | #4 | |
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08-12-2003, 04:47 PM | #5 |
Haunting Spirit
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Well, he surely amde some attempts, as the many battles prove! But when he succeded, after the destruction of gondolin, he counted the remaining elves for nothing, completely ignored them adn they were, logically seen not a threat to him, they could do nothign alone and he did not expect them succeding in convincing (he didn't even know they tried) the Valar to help them.
Måns
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08-12-2003, 06:39 PM | #6 |
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As for why Morgoth didn't destroy the Silmarils, apart from wanting them, I don't think he could have destroyed them if he tried. They were holy jewels and burned him if he touched them, and they can even survive in the molten core of the earth, where one of them finished up. Morgoth couldn't have destroyed them even if he wanted to.
In response to the Noldor, Morgoth did almost succeed in wiping them out, with them only having one major settlement left, the havens at Tol Sirion (I think that is what it was called) and this was then destroyed by the sons of Feanor. If the War of the Wrath didn't occur, the Noldor (and other elves) would've been completely wiped out from Middle Earth in a short period of time.
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08-12-2003, 10:23 PM | #7 |
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there were 5 battles in the war of the Ring. Melkor lost the first 3, and came back to win the end two, which proved decisive. he clearly didnt wipe out the Noldor through lack of trying, and indeed, he may not of won the last battle, if it hadnt of been for the men losing heart and betraying. no, i think Melkor was unable to overthrow the Noldor completely because he did not have the power to do so
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08-13-2003, 01:39 AM | #8 |
Haunting Spirit
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I don't see your point here, he DID wipe them out! If we were in a fight, god forbid, and you it me three times, but then I come and hit you two times, bringing you down on the floor, who has won? Who was beaten? Surely he tried, every single abttle was an attempt to wipe out the enemy present in Beleriand, but he failed. After the Nirnaeth Arnoediad he subsequently destroyed Nargothrond and Gondolin. After that, he thoguht he ahd wiped them out, he ahd destroyed hteir cities, driven them from their homes, slain their nobles and peoples, what more do you ask of him? Do you seriosuly mean that after the destruction of Gondolin he had not the power to sack the puny havens of Brithombar, if he ever heard of them. He cared not, he would deal with them in time.
If you read though the last chapters of the Quenta Silmarillion, you will see what I mean. Måns
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08-13-2003, 02:19 AM | #9 | |
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In the end, he was defeated -- but by Valinor. He crushed the Noldor. Perhaps a fairly good analogy could be found in the example of WWII France. As for the initial question, Voralphion is correct. The Silmarils were indestructible in Arda; So that no violence in Arda may mar or break them. Feanor, their maker and the only one who knew their secret, was the only one who could have destroyed them -- as Yavanna asked him to do after the death of the Trees. |
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08-13-2003, 02:30 AM | #10 |
Haunting Spirit
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but he didnt wipe them all out, is my point. he did overthrow them(only to be beaten himself) but he did not wipe out the last remnants of them. maybe i got the jist of it incorrectly, but not all the Noldor were slain. almost of them were, it is true, but i thought it was whether he had complete dominance over them, which he did not, as some escaped.
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08-13-2003, 02:32 AM | #11 |
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i also have a good point, lol. he could of given them to Ungoliant if he wished them destroyed, but instead he destroyed her, thus proving that he did indeed want the Silmarils, and not simply wish to deny Feanor of them(and i hope this almost makes up for my previous folly)
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08-13-2003, 02:38 AM | #12 |
Haunting Spirit
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Hehehe WWII France... Mayeb Númenor would eb a better analogy, beat one enemy btu then attacked the one that was their irreversible superior, CCCP.
Well anyway, ti is clearly said in the Silmarillion that he counted the remains of teh edain and Noldor for nothing and did not care to destroy them. He ahd the strength from Nirnaeth on, but didn't because he saw no reason ot bother, what could they do him? Måns
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08-13-2003, 08:44 AM | #13 |
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Morgoth didn't destroy the Noldor completely: some lived on and mingled themselves with the other elvish races.
(I thought Galadriel was a Noldor, wasn't she related to feanor?)
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08-13-2003, 08:58 AM | #14 | |
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08-13-2003, 11:52 AM | #15 |
Haunting Spirit
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About why Melkor didn't destroy the Silmarils: why destroy pretty and shiny jewels when you can gloat over them?
Why he didn't wipe out the Noldor in one hit: If he could, I think he was waiting to make it big. I think he wanted to be remembered in history as the great big evil Vala who destoryed the Noldor once in for all, in one big swipe of his power. Or he was just an idiot, either way...
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08-14-2003, 01:02 AM | #16 | |
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Morgoth did overthrow the Noldor and he did seem to be winning, but he might have overestimated his defeated enemies. Being evil, he did not know forgiveness, however, so it is very unlikely he would suspect the Valar to help them. Then again, wouldn't he suspect the Valar wanting to be rid of him [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]? -Aredhel
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08-14-2003, 01:33 AM | #17 |
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Actually, no. Almost in teh same breath as it is said that he did not ccare for the remaining Noldor and didn't know forgiveness, he is said to have thought that they would live in their bliss and happiness in Valinor and let him rule Middle Earth and Men.
Måns
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08-14-2003, 01:38 AM | #18 | |
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Remember that Melkor was still a Vala, and said to be the most powerful of all the Ainur. He was mightier than Ungoliant. After his return to Angband, he would have again grown in his power; and most importantly through the power he had invested (the Balrogs, for example), he was by far her superior. Make no mistake about the Noldor, though. Morgoth was going to wipe them out, along with the other peoples of Beleriand that were left in opposition to him. As I have said he defeated and squashed them totally, his forces controlled Beleriand and -- not expecting their succour from the West -- he was merely taking his own time. Quite possibily savouring his final, hard-fought victory now it had come. (Morgoth the Great -- no, obviously he didn't wipe them out. Many Elves escaped him, a significant number in various corners of the land. But he did have dominance. He had beaten them, and finishing them off was just around the corner. Obviously he didn't control their affairs (which is why 'some escaped') in the few hide-outs left for them to crouch in, awaiting the final blow. These affairs, however, would soon stop and were in any case nothing at all to him.) [ August 14, 2003: Message edited by: Gwaihir the Windlord ] |
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08-14-2003, 08:18 AM | #19 | |
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(but that is not where this topic is about [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] )
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08-15-2003, 01:41 PM | #20 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Swan song, -Menelien
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08-15-2003, 01:44 PM | #21 | |
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08-16-2003, 09:46 AM | #22 | |
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[ August 17, 2003: Message edited by: Firnantoonion ]
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08-17-2003, 03:59 AM | #23 | |
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But it is true. Although Manwe was more akin to Illuvatar, Melkor was in the beginning created with powers that surpassed all others. He did fairly well in his various (primordial, War of the Powers) wars with the Valar, if you think about it, for saying that they were fourteen Valar onto him alone (with Maiar on both sides, but more on the side of the Valar). His influence on the world was huge, and that was impacted through his power. I do not doubt that if it had been Melkor and Manwe alone, two singular opposing powers, Melkor would have prevailed. As it was, the Valar were many and united and stood as a more solid, formidable foe. Having said this, there is another interesting possibility. Manwe, sitting atop Taniquetil, had more than one 'revelation' and once a very extensive (but still unsatisfactory) vision of Men, that were granted to him through Illuvatar. Could Manwe in fact have increased in power while within Arda, through Illuvatar? It is doubtful that Melkor would have recieved these things from Eru, as his mind was closed to his maker. On second thought, though, these communications between Illuvatar and Manwe probably were no more than communication. Manwe was, after all, the most insightful of the Ainur into Eru's mind; it is likely that he was simply using this skill. |
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08-17-2003, 09:40 AM | #24 | |
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Yes, yes, 'Morgoth' is just a name that Feanor gave Melkor, but there seems to be a huge difference between the two, if you look at it in a certain way. -Aredhel
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08-17-2003, 11:02 AM | #25 | |||
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OriginallyMelkor was the most powerful being in Ea (Apart from Eru)
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But, he began to squander his strength upon Arda, so that all of it, excpect for Valinor, for a while, was untainted. (Though of course, the Elves being born in 'tainted' M-E brought his taint with them, hence the death of Miriel which was a forerunner of things to come) Melkor's power began to be dispersed as soon has he re-entered Arda with his host and overthrew the Lamps of the Valar. From that moment he had subjects who he had to hold to his will and he had to exert his power into their beings, thus wasting his 'natural strength' He first realises this when the Vala take Utumno in order to aid the Elves, and he meets Manwe; Quote:
The Noldor, Sindar and Edain would neverbe overcome the Valar chose the perfect time in which to attack Morgoth, when there was little hope left. The Noldor, themselves filled their purpose to stop Morgoth from destroying Arda, as he may have done: Quote:
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08-18-2003, 02:39 AM | #26 | ||
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No-one has yet said anything related to the main point of my posts so far -- that is, the subject of Morgoth's immense 'invested power'. Melkor himself has been diminished in power, but that is only because the immensity of this power has already been used to good effect. As you say, the very essence of the universe bears his evil stain unremovably, and forever. From without the 'Doors of Night', this enables him to still have some sort of influence in Arda; he is still a real threat. And supposedly he will again muster his power, and challenge the Valar and the free world for the fourth, final and greatest time in the Dagor Dagorath, Last Battle. The power which he will come up against the West, supposedly, will then be so great that the world itself is shattered in a final Armageddon-style wave of destruction; Morgoth holds his power still, and it is perhaps even more deadly now that he has put it forth into the fibres of the essence of the world. ------ About the Noldor, though, Inderjit. I think you are incorrect in this statement: Quote:
Of course, this turning of events was meant to happen. The Valar did not plan for it to happen, though. |
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08-18-2003, 08:06 AM | #27 | ||||||||||||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Quote:
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It was evident that Earendil was a 'special' child, in Laws and Customs of the Eldar (HoME 10) we learn that mother-names are held to be 'prophetic', and the Shibboleth of Feanor says of Idril's naming of Earendil; Quote:
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Evidently the date of the coming of Earendil was not specified, but the Valar knew he would come, to the salvation of Men and Elves when they were at their lowest ebb. As I have said the Valar timed their attack with the utmost precision, but of course it was Eru who caused all the things to be. Quote:
As Sam says (or thinks, as the case was); Quote:
And Gandalf; Quote:
So the shadow would never, ever overcome, even if there is little hope left (as there often was) and of course when Gandalf was speaking of him being a steward, he was being a steward of the Valar and therefore representing their thoughts. With the final defeat of the Elves and Edain where would hope after arise? M-E and maybe all Arda would be crushed. On Melkors dispersion of powers within Arda itself, we hear much about this in Myths TransformedArda would forever be tainted with his shadow, as Namo says; Quote:
Melkor's taint would always live on in Arda and never cease to exist whilst Arda lasts. On the Dagorath, or to be more precise Melkor coming back and what he was doing when he was cast into Ea we hear: Quote:
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On the actual Dagor Dagoraththe 'Last Battle' we have very few descriptions. There is one in The History of Eriol or Elfwine(BoLT 2) and in the Sketch of the Mythology (HoME 4) and also in the Latter Quenta Silmarillion()HoME 5) in which Namo supposedly, prophecises the events or some of the events that will take place in the Dagor Dagorath. But there is a flaw in this. One in the we learn the 'Valaquenta' that Namo never revealed what would happen in the end of days and in Myths Transformedwe learn that the Silmarillion is in fact of Numenorean origin. The truth is we will know little about the Dagorath because we and the peoples of M-E know so little about it We hear of the Elvish theory that Arda's end will come through the evil nature of Men but the good nature will redeem it. Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth) (Like a bigger case of the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, maybe.) We only ever get snatches of info. on the end of Arda, which was inevitable. Arda was not finite. We get a refernce to the 'dark lord' taking over the world in the Barrow-Wights song, who this 'dark lord' was we don't know, Sauron claimed he was indeed Morgoth returned in the T.A, and I doubt whether many of his servants (As the wight was) would have not belived this. Quote:
We also hear that Sauron was 'just a emmisary'of things to come and in Aragorn's cornonation speech,in Quenya, he refers to the worlds end 'Ambat-metta' but this was a echo of Elendil's words upon entering M-E.
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08-19-2003, 03:02 AM | #28 |
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Very nice post, Inderjit. I agree with it totally. Of course, through the visions of the Music and through Illuvatar, the Valar knew that the Morgoth would eventually be defeated in Beleriand. Mandos's prophecy seems to speak about it with quite a degree of accuracy.
I probably didn't take the wording of your former post the way it was intended. At any rate, that -- while pretty light really, without all the quotes =] -- was an enjoyable read, and I thankyou for posting it. [ August 19, 2003: Message edited by: Gwaihir the Windlord ] |
11-24-2010, 06:54 AM | #29 |
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What I don't understand is how Morgoth could endure the Silmarili. He's the Dark Lord, and he has light shining out of his crown. That doesn't make any sense to me.
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12-28-2010, 12:04 PM | #30 | |
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It would mean (to him) that he rules not only darkness, but also light.
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