Using Shelob, and choice of cliffhangers - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Essex · 07-04-2005, 02:42 AM

Most Tolkien book fans have moaned at one time or another about how the films are different to the books.

Jackson puts the Shelob scene in EXACTLY where it is chronologically in the books.

And now lots of people slag him off for actually following Tolkien's time line.

He can't win, whatever he does............

Now when I first heard that shelob wasn't in TT I was dismayed, and yes, the book has the greatest Cliffhanger in all of 20th Century literature, and I've mentioned this quite a few times in the last couple of years on this site. BUT listen to the extras on the ROTK dvd, and they explain how why they did this to fit in with Tolkien's timeline. In the book, Aragorn was fighting the forces at Pelagir, Theoden was in Drauadan Forest, and Minas Tirith was about to be besieged.

So Jackson was being FAITHFUL TO THE BOOKS. And he still gets a bad time. Oh well.

PS the only way having Shelob at the end of TT and remain faithful to the books is to edit the movies as Tolien wanted them - IE follow the NARRATION of the books. But this would be Movie suicide - it just would never have worked staying on one group of characters for half a movies length.

PPS the movies are all one long 12 hour marathon now that we have the DVDs anyway. Like the books, they're just one long story split up in 3 sections. Just like Tolkien was forced to split the book up into 3 chunks for it to be published.

PPPS - and yes, I know, if you want to be picky, in truth the LOTR is 6 books!!!!

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 07-04-2005, 05:36 AM

Followed Tolkien's timeline; did not follow Tolkien's The Two Towers. It's a choice that had to be made and, yeah, we would moan either way.

The major negative consequence of the director's choice is that Frodo and Sam's story in The Two Towers movie is horrible.

Bêthberry · 07-04-2005, 07:40 AM

Dredging the harbour to build a better port, eh, Eomer?

I think you have to consider the placing of Shelob in terms of the movie concept PJ had for LotR: action/adventure/blockbuster flic. As a creative artist, he has the right to develop his own interpretation, as long as it is marketed as his version of events, of course.

The yardstick for placing Shelob then becomes where will her inclusion best appeal to the kind of audience which favours action/adventure/blockbuster flics.

I think it would just be *too* scary for the general members of this audience (where the XY chromosomes hold the majority--at least, it seems so to this minority XX member) to contemplate an ending with a female, loathesome as she is, to get the upper hand on our young hero. It is inconceivable that a female, even an evilly vile one, could come off with the big climax. Orcs carrying off Pippin and Merry are no threat to the masculinity of those youthful hobbits, but a female, well, PJ had enough to deal with representing Frodo's kind of heroism without inviting that kind of disasterous denouement.

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 07-04-2005, 01:40 PM

Of course. That must be the answer.

Elianna · 07-04-2005, 04:02 PM

Am I the only one who, despite the first half of her name being "she" and meaning she, who doesn't usually remember that Shelob is a girl?

Shelob · 07-04-2005, 05:02 PM

You aren't alone Elianna, I do that too...though I've gotten noticeably better lately, like since January...

07-04-2005, 05:36 AM	#2
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,859	Followed Tolkien's timeline; did not follow Tolkien's The Two Towers. It's a choice that had to be made and, yeah, we would moan either way. The major negative consequence of the director's choice is that Frodo and Sam's story in The Two Towers movie is horrible. __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

07-04-2005, 01:40 PM	#4
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,859	Of course. That must be the answer. __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

07-04-2005, 04:02 PM	#5
Elianna Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Ad finem itineris Posts: 384	Am I the only one who, despite the first half of her name being "she" and meaning she, who doesn't usually remember that Shelob is a girl? __________________ Enyale cuilenya, ú-enyale mandenya.

07-04-2005, 05:02 PM	#6
Shelob Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: At the abysmal Abyss Mall. Posts: 276	You aren't alone Elianna, I do that too...though I've gotten noticeably better lately, like since January... __________________ A signature always reveals a man's character - and sometimes even his name ~Evan Esar. Pan for Everyone!

07-04-2005, 02:42 AM	#1
Essex Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Essex, England Posts: 886	Most Tolkien book fans have moaned at one time or another about how the films are different to the books. Jackson puts the Shelob scene in EXACTLY where it is chronologically in the books. And now lots of people slag him off for actually following Tolkien's time line. He can't win, whatever he does............ Now when I first heard that shelob wasn't in TT I was dismayed, and yes, the book has the greatest Cliffhanger in all of 20th Century literature, and I've mentioned this quite a few times in the last couple of years on this site. BUT listen to the extras on the ROTK dvd, and they explain how why they did this to fit in with Tolkien's timeline. In the book, Aragorn was fighting the forces at Pelagir, Theoden was in Drauadan Forest, and Minas Tirith was about to be besieged. So Jackson was being FAITHFUL TO THE BOOKS. And he still gets a bad time. Oh well. PS the only way having Shelob at the end of TT and remain faithful to the books is to edit the movies as Tolien wanted them - IE follow the NARRATION of the books. But this would be Movie suicide - it just would never have worked staying on one group of characters for half a movies length. PPS the movies are all one long 12 hour marathon now that we have the DVDs anyway. Like the books, they're just one long story split up in 3 sections. Just like Tolkien was forced to split the book up into 3 chunks for it to be published. PPPS - and yes, I know, if you want to be picky, in truth the LOTR is 6 books!!!!

07-04-2005, 07:40 AM	#3
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 6,003	Dredging the harbour to build a better port, eh, Eomer? I think you have to consider the placing of Shelob in terms of the movie concept PJ had for LotR: action/adventure/blockbuster flic. As a creative artist, he has the right to develop his own interpretation, as long as it is marketed as his version of events, of course. The yardstick for placing Shelob then becomes where will her inclusion best appeal to the kind of audience which favours action/adventure/blockbuster flics. I think it would just be too scary for the general members of this audience (where the XY chromosomes hold the majority--at least, it seems so to this minority XX member) to contemplate an ending with a female, loathesome as she is, to get the upper hand on our young hero. It is inconceivable that a female, even an evilly vile one, could come off with the big climax. Orcs carrying off Pippin and Merry are no threat to the masculinity of those youthful hobbits, but a female, well, PJ had enough to deal with representing Frodo's kind of heroism without inviting that kind of disasterous denouement.