Was Gollum's slip the only way?

[VanimaEdhel]

Originally Posted by Kath

I always thought (personal opinion though not based on any real facts) that the reason Frodo was so much more affected by the Ring than Bilbo was because when the latter had the Ring Sauron was not really searching for it. He did not know that it had been found and so was not actively seeking it out. When Frodo has the Ring Sauron knows of its existence and (as is said in the film) all his thought is bent on it.

This is actually how I always saw it. At the time when Bilbo was in possession of the ring, Sauron was still fairly weak. He did not yet possess the power to begin actively seeking out the ring. It seems that he and the ring both grew equally in power - each tied to the other, so every burst of energy from one causing an increase in the other. It is almost as though, through the connection, they bolstered each other up to full strength. At the time that Frodo had the ring and was prepared to destroy it, I don't think that any being could have possessed the will power to throw the ring into the fire. Even Sam, who most consider to be even more selfless than Frodo, felt the weight of the ring pretty quickly during the short period of time where he had to hold it. Though he was not yet Mr. Possessive, he began to understand the torture Frodo endured - feeling it much more quickly than Frodo, in fact. I think that the ring had this much effect on Samwise so quickly because Sauron was so close to regaining his former strength.

So even if Gandalf was around it would have been far harder if not impossible for him to have persuaded Frodo to let it go as the Ring has had more of an influence on him than it did on Bilbo.

The ring still did have an effect on Bilbo though. It was a very, very powerfully dark object: even in the depths of its weakness, over time it could still wear away at a person. Look at what it did to Smeagol, corrupting him even as its creator lay almost helpless. It had nowhere near the power it would eventually take on as Sauron regained strength, but it still had the power to inflict and plant evil in the most innocent of places. In so many ways the ring is more powerful than its true creator and master - Sauron depended on it for his own survival, but the ring did not seem to need Sauron to carry on itself. It continued to fulfill its role even when Sauron was incapacitated.

In my mind, the ring is sort of a form of artificial intelligence. It seems to possess a mind of its own - know who it wants to burden and who it wants to remain with. It tries to guide its bearer to a certain location and has such a persuasive manner about it. But, at the same time, it does not express a certain human quality - perhaps spirit or emotion. This makes it even more frightening - it continues its spread of darkness despite what appears to be defeat. It is so vigilant - it does not know fear or hopelessness, it only knows its job and continues so effectively. It controls not only beings such as Frodo and Sam, but its creator as well - Sauron, originally the master (or lord, if you will) of the ring, now finds himself dependent on the ring as the ring is not so dependent on him. I feel that if Sauron had been reunited with the ring and had continued to gain power, even if some being had found the means of destroying Sauron, the ring would survive, find a new bearer to control, and would endure.

[Mithalwen]

The only person who might, and I stress might, in my opinion - and more it is a feeling than anything I could prove, is Elrond. Of all the powerful people in the books he is the least ambitious. He is wise and knows the score. I think maybe if he had taken the ring from Sauron's hand, maybe he could have done it. The fire was close, Sauron was presumably at his weakest. He may have been slower to influence than Isildur. But I don't think he could have made Frodo's journey and done it.

[Findegil]

It is true taht Bilbo did give the Ringa away and that he was the first to do so. But he was not the only one: Sam did it as well, and even was much less help then Bilbo (but after a much shorter time of claiming it).

I don't think that any being in Middle-Earth could have distroied the Ring, not after the War in Second Age nor at any later time. Celebrimbor and Galadriel together were not able to destroy the Elvenrings, so I don't belive Elrond had it made any better then Isildur. And I think he did know it. Not for nothing he said that he would not take the Ring for hidding at the council.

What he could have done in the second Age and what, I think, would have been the best way, was killing Isildur by pushing him over the brink into the fire! And that exactly would have been what Gandalf would have persued Sam or any other surving companien if he had been at the Cracks of Doom. HE could not even have done that within rules of his mission, I think. So he had to bring someelse to do it.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Elladan and Elrohir]

I'm not sure I agree with that. If Sam were to push Frodo in, Frodo would essentially be forced to destroy the Ring, a breach of his free will. Free will, obviously, is a theme that runs throughout all of Tolkien's works, and was deemed by him to be fundamental to the workings of the world. Were Sam to breach Frodo's free will by pushing him into the Crack, it would be equivalent to the Ring, which also broke Frodo's will by forcing him to take It.

So I don't think Gandalf's advice would have been to push Frodo in, just as Cirdan and Elrond did not push Isildur in. They honored his choice of free will, if indeed it was that, and I think Gandalf would have done the same.

But then, the inevitable question is, what would have happened? If we're not to push Frodo in, what happens? How do we destroy the Ring? I think that's an unanswerable question. The One Ring COULD NOT be destroyed by anyone in Middle-earth, of their own will (unless it be Tom Bombadil, who never would have gone to the Crack anyway). And in the end, of course, it was not destroyed by anyone's will. Both Frodo and Gollum sought to preserve it and keep it; and of course Gollum slipped in his gloating.

I look at the above paragraph and realize that it contradicts Tolkien's Letter in which he stated that Gollum or Frodo could have voluntarily thrown themselves and the Ring into the Crack of Doom. This is unfortunate; I try never to go against what the author himself has stated. But perhaps he's wrong this time. Perhaps it would be impossible for Frodo or Gollum to throw themselves in with the Ring.

If anyone spots a hole in my above arguments, please feel free to share it; I'm not even sure I agree with what I said, which happens often when I'm on the Downs.

One possible hole would be: how important is the preservation of free will when the fate of Middle-earth hangs in the balance? Of course, reviewing my arguments, I see that the issue of free will is moot if one agrees that the One Ring cannot be voluntarily destroyed. If one cannot throw himself and the Ring into the Crack, then it follows that one cannot push the person who has the Ring into the Crack, for the same reason.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Elladan and Elrohir

If anyone spots a hole in my above arguments, please feel free to share it; I'm not even sure I agree with what I said, which happens often when I'm on the Downs.

Alright then, here's what I want to poke a hole in, though not in the ARGUMENT, persay:

Originally Posted by Elladan and Elrohir

So I don't think Gandalf's advice would have been to push Frodo in, just as Cirdan and Elrond did not push Isildur in. They honored his choice of free will, if indeed it was that, and I think Gandalf would have done the same.

COULD Cirdan or Elrond have pushed Isildur in?

Isildur was one of the great in middle-earth. He was Numenorian, of high birth, at the height of his life and powers, and was, by all accounts, a great warrior and leader. Look at his accomplishments: saving the sapling of the White Tree, escaping Numenor, founding Gondor, fighting Sauron. He was a great man.

While Elrond and Cirdan, by dint of their much greater age, were certainly wiser than Isildur- and maybe smarter- I doubt if they were physically stronger. Men and Elves were very much comparable, and in the one case that we have a Man raised by Elves- Turin- he grows up to be stronger than the Elves around him. Isildur, a trained warrior, with quite a few years experience behind him, was probably stronger in arms than Elrond, "the Herald of Gil-galad" and Cirdan "the Shipwright".

I doubt if they COULD have pushed him in...

But, as an addendum, even if they could have pushed him in, how does that negate his free will? After all, they were acting of THEIR own free will...

[Elladan and Elrohir]

It would negate Isildur's free will because he would be physically forced to destroy the Ring, i.e., against his will.

But, like I said in my last paragraph, the point is moot if, as I think, no one could voluntarily destroy the One Ring of Power.

If it came down to it, I'm sure Cirdan and Elrond together probably could have forced Isildur into the Crack. But I don't believe it ever could have gotten that far.