Using Shelob, and choice of cliffhangers

[Folwren]

Originally posted by mormegil
I've stated elsewhere that I wish RotK had more of Sam and Frodo's journey through Mordor, the orc march specifically, but I don't agree that leaving Frodo "dead" would be a good way to end TTT.

No, no, no. You don't leave him "Dead", so to speak, just helpless. The audience will end up knowing he's alive by the end. He could effectively end it with the same sentence (or, as it would be in a movie, impression) as Tolkien did.

Frodo was alive but taken by the enemy.

Anyway, as it was, they had so much to put into the RotK when it came about that they had to cut short Sam's struggle and sorrow at his death. That is one of the most dramatic and sad parts in the entire trilogy, and to cut it short to the point where even I hardly cried at the theater when I saw it is really pathetic. They had done it like it was supposed to have been done, in the TT, then they would have had time.

I think what PJ was hoping to capture with Shelob at the start of RotK was instant excitement and energy. Show how perilous Mordor is.

Shelob wasn't even part of Mordor. And next to that, she's not even at the beginning of the movie. At the beginning of their part in the movie, Frodo turns Sam off and sends him home like a dog.

Besides, the danger of Mordor wasn't really in getting caught by orcs, but dying of thirst and hunger and being caught by the eye...they did a good job with that, but I don't think that he needed Shelob to help with protraying the danger of Mordor.

[Balin999]

I agree with eomer. Shelob should have been in TTT.
But then, I think that the only acceptable of the three movies is FotR.
The unnecessary changes in TTT made me so angry that I wanted to leave the theatre when I first saw it.
Come on, Haldir in Helms Deep? And then he dies like in a bad western with Aragorn screaming "HAAAAAALDIIIIIIIIIIR" (imagine hearing that in slow-motion)

And then Faramir who is a much wiser person than his brother turns out to be a thread to Frodo.
It just sucks.

And then, as eomer said, the audience is left with gollum giving hints about Shelob.
And I agree, the part of Helms depp should have been shorter. and he could have left out that ridicolous Robin Hood scene of Legolas.
Ok I'll stop now...

Shelob for TTT!

[drigel]

i would have welcomed anything that would have freed up the space to put the Scouring back in RotK

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

O drigel, you are inviting a furious backlash by suggesting adding the Scouring. (I'm with you, though!)

Folwren brings up another point which I had forgotten: Sam's grief. In all honesty this could have been one of the saddest scenes in cinematic history. As it turned out, it was merely ok and ridiculously short.

I am slightly puzzled by mormegil's thoughts: that people might not like the 'Frodo-captured' ending for being too dramatic and intense. Well, was the boring 'Gollum-mutters' ending preferable? It was certainly an intensity-killer. I don't think it satisfied.

[Lalwendë]

I had thought that the Shelob episode worked quite well being moved to RotK. But reading what everyone's saying here is making me change my mind about that. It's true that the ending of TT was a little strange and subdued, and it would have made a wonderful ending to have left the non-reading audience thinking that Frodo was dead.

There would have been another benefit to it of course, and it may have made even more people go out and read the books.

[Kath]

I agree with you Eomer. When I first read TTT I was absolutely hooked by the ending. I was in the car at the time and bugged my father to speed all the way home so I could find out what happened next.

I never felt this sense of urgency or even desire to find out when I watched TTT and this is not just down to knowing anyway because I had some idea of the plot when I read the books first time anyway.

Putting Shelob and Frodo and Sam's separation in TTT might have made a pretty dull film actually exciting. The whole focus was on the happenings at Helm's Deep and then as a way to show that Frodo and Sam were in the film they put in that awful Faramir story (which I won't go into because I will rant about it for pages!).

As for a clifhanger, seeing a giant spider attack Frodo and then orcs carrying him off with poor Sam just having found out that the master he left to die is still alive and now in the hands of the enemy is in my opinion as far better and more tense cliffhanger than Gollums comments about a 'she'.

[Elianna]

Having the big huge climax of the movie be with Frodo and Sam, instead of with Aragorn et al. would have also reminded the viewers that the real quest is with Frodo, and that all that Aragorn is doing is being...

Legolas: A diversion!

Me: Yes, Lego, *pats his golden head* now go away.

Phillipa Boyens talks on the extras of the DVD about how you can't be so emotionally demanding on your audience, to have them sit through Helm's Deep and then have to go face Shelob too. But by moving Shelob to RotK, they do the same thing. You're all emotionally drained from Shelob, then go through all the Pelennor Fields, and when that climactic battle is final over, you think you can relax, but no, the next scene brings you back to Frodo, the one who's really important, who is still stuck in Cirith Ungol.

[Folwren]

Originially posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim:
Folwren brings up another point which I had forgotten: Sam's grief. In all honesty this could have been one of the saddest scenes in cinematic history. As it turned out, it was merely ok and ridiculously short.

That's my point. In the book, Tolkien takes up several pages protraying how sad he was and how completely devistated he became when Frodo died. I mean, Sam even suggested suicide to himself and that's pretty drastic. In the movie, they don't show any of that.

I agree with Elianna...they focussed far too much on Aragorn and Helm's Deep.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

To compensate, they had the terrible Faramir deal. Frodo and Sam had nothing to work with so they make Faramir into a supposedly huge threat: which is not exciting and the whole affair totally demeaned Faramir. What a woeful character he turned out to be. He barely came off better than that blonde guy who says:

"It is as the Lord Denethor predicted; long has he foreseen this doom!"

And let me tell you, that guy did not come off well.

O, and Helm's Deep was stretched out way too far. My mother was absolutely sick of it. Not everyone likes battles. Now, I agree that the battle should have been the centrepiece of the movie, but it should not have consumed the story like it did.

[The Saucepan Man]

It couldn't have worked from a timing point of view without moving a good portion of the beginning of RotK back to TTT.

As Frodo, Sam and Gollum are climbing the hidden staircase, the armies of Mordor are marching on Osgiliath, en route to Minas Tirith. So, Orthanc, Pippin and the Palantir and Gandalf and Pippin riding to Minas Tirith and meeting Denethor would all have needed to be added in to TTT.

It only works in the books because the two storylines are presented sequentially rather than concurrently. But to do that on screen would have been incredibly confusing for audiences and would not have worked at all.

And I might as well tack on my usual refrain on such questions: What's done is done. We have what I consider to be three amazing films. Either watch 'em and enjoy 'em or don't watch 'em at all.