Aragorn and Arwen: More than kissing?

[Parmawen]

I just wanted to point out that Tolkien was a very religious man, and sex out of wedlock is highly frowned upon in it...so I'm pretty sure that HE certainly never put nor hinted it in the books.

As for the movie, it could be that PJ wanted to add some of that appeal, perhaps to bring a rounder audience for the love triangle aspect (which I thought was really overdone) but honestly, I thought Aragorn's dream was just plain awkward, as was his kiss with her at the end of ROTK...just because Arwen is after all an elf, and elves are things of beauty and grace...so you don't usually expect to see them...making out. It just didn't quite fit with the characters.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Originally Posted by Parmawen

I just wanted to point out that Tolkien was a very religious man, and sex out of wedlock is highly frowned upon in it...so I'm pretty sure that HE certainly never put nor hinted it in the books.

Yes, but the RCs tend to frown on incest as well, but that didn't stop Tolkien from including it in his works. He may have been a religious person, but he was neither stupid nor blind to the reality of the world. People have sex and sometimes they have sex before they are married. That the movie should acknowledge this, and perhaps even celebrate it, does -- I think -- PJ great credit for having had the nerve to make his Elven Princess a creature of flesh and blood and desire, rather than a distant and idealised figure carved from cold stone.

That kiss at the end of RotK was wonderful. It was the big pay off to their whole relationship insofar as they can openly demonstrate to everyone not just that they are in love, but that they desire one another. After all, the "point" of their union -- in the historical perspective -- is that they are going to produce an heir who reunites the bloodlines of the Eldar and the Edain: and there's only one way they can do that....

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Parmawen

I just wanted to point out that Tolkien was a very religious man, and sex out of wedlock is highly frowned upon in it...so I'm pretty sure that HE certainly never put nor hinted it in the books.

Parmawen, it is possible that authors, even very highly ethical ones, don't always share contemporary understandings of sexual mores or ethics. You might want to read more in Tolkien's letters and his other texts for his concept of chastity and sexual ethics. For instance, in Tolkien's theory about elven marriage, "sex out of wedlock" is not possible. For elves, the very act of sexual intercourse constitutes marriage. In fact, for him, the social or cultural control is very much the less important aspect, as Tolkien disliked any wiff of imposed authority. Thus, he made the personal and private choice or decision the determiner of the state of marriage. I suppose one way of saying this is to suggest that for Tolkien sexual intercourse was not fallen, and so that the act of sexual intercourse was the act of marriage. You slept with someone, you were married to that person. Desire for elves was apparently pure in this way.

Originally Posted by Fordim

That the movie should acknowledge this, and perhaps even celebrate it, does -- I think -- PJ great credit for having had the nerve to make his Elven Princess a creature of flesh and blood and desire, rather than a distant and idealised figure carved from cold stone.

Well, I'm going to take a slightly different tack here. It's not that I disagree with Fordim, but I want to consider Aragorn and Arwen from a different perspective, one not so completely based on psychological realism.

One type of hero in old mythologies was the hero who underwent his battles and quest in order to earn the love of the goddess. Only by proving himself could he take full possession of his bride. It is a mystical marriage and made possible only after he has demonstrated his right to be called hero or king, to turn aside egotism, pride, vanity, and submit himself to the journey. Seen in this light, Aragorn and Arwen are less characters in a realistic novel and more figures of an ideal in fantasy. They each must earn their Heart's Desire by denying themselves at first. This aspect of the novel I think Jackson missed in his--albeit somewhat legitimate--desire to turn Arwen into a more modern woman. The concept of chastity, not simply physical chastity, but that of the entire body, mind, and spirit, is a hard sell these days.

[Parmawen]

[QUOTE=Bêthberry]Parmawen, it is possible that authors, even very highly ethical ones, don't always share contemporary understandings of sexual mores or ethics. You might want to read more in Tolkien's letters and his other texts for his concept of chastity and sexual ethics. For instance, in Tolkien's theory about elven marriage, "sex out of wedlock" is not possible. For elves, the very act of sexual intercourse constitutes marriage. In fact, for him, the social or cultural control is very much the less important aspect, as Tolkien disliked any wiff of imposed authority. Thus, he made the personal and private choice or decision the determiner of the state of marriage. I suppose one way of saying this is to suggest that for Tolkien sexual intercourse was not fallen, and so that the act of sexual intercourse was the act of marriage. You slept with someone, you were married to that person. Desire for elves was apparently pure in this way. QUOTE]

You have a very good point...and I certainly never knew that about elves. I suppose, it's more that I don't want to believe that Arwen and Aragorn would have been having sex, since for me, it detracts from the mysterious and elegant beauty of it all. Lastly, where did you find these letters/texts? I'd love to read into them more

[Bêthberry]

Hello Parmawen,

Tolkien's letters can be found in The Letters of J R R Tolkien, edited by Humphrey Carpenter, 1995. It is easily available as a HarperCollins paperback. The collection is not complete, but for now it is the best we have.

Other information about Tolkien's writings, drafts, the way his ideas changed as he rewrote his mythology can be found in the 12 volume collection History of Middle-Earth by Christopher Tolkien. There is also interesting stuff in Unfinished Tales, published under J R R Tolkien's name and edited by Christopher Tolkien. All available as HarperCollins paperbacks. I would think that most libraries carry at least the History of Middle-earth, as mine does.

So, dig in! In answer to the specific question about elven marriage practices, I bet Helen, aka Mark12_30 or Child of the 7th Age could give you the exact quote, line by line. Or piosenniel or Mithadan. It was a contentious issue in one of their RPGs about the Lonely Star.

[Parmawen]

Thanks Bêthberry! I'll definetely look into it!