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Old 05-08-2003, 03:42 PM   #41
GaladrieloftheOlden
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Iarwain- It's somewhat weird. Some people who go overboard with political correctness started up this thing about the insignificance of what this person or that wrote, because he was a dead white man, and the idea spread. If you want to get it better, try a google search on "dead white man" and read some of the stuff that comes up. It makes more sense in context. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

~Menelien

[ May 08, 2003: Message edited by: GaladrieloftheOlden ]
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Old 05-08-2003, 03:45 PM   #42
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Galadriel, I know what you mean but I think the dead white men thing is a bit of a red herring. I don't think any of the schools that are banning Tolkien give a stuff about Political Correctness. I think they are right at the other end of the political spectrum....
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Old 05-08-2003, 04:24 PM   #43
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Ah, I think I know what you're talking about, Menelien. I really dislike the mindset that leads to discrimination like that.

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Old 05-08-2003, 04:32 PM   #44
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so do I.....
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Old 05-08-2003, 05:13 PM   #45
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Lalaith- of course it's probably not those kinds of schools mostly, but lots of schools ban Tolkien, and there is an easy chance that at least some of them do it for that precise reason, to be demonstrative of their "polititcal correctness", especially if their schools were some of those that were incorrect a while ago.

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Old 05-08-2003, 05:31 PM   #46
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As Lalaith pointed out, when the theory of evolution is discussed (ususally much earlier that Senior year) it is not pointed out to be a theory in the same way as a meteor bringing about the start of the last ice age is.
Sorry to keep bringing this up but as an educator this kind of stuff really sticks in my craw. I'm not saying that the above is not true, but it is an example of how science is not presented properly to students. EVERYTHING in science is a theory. Everything in science is subject to counter theories and this should be ephasised continually when the subject is being taught. The thing is, these counter theories need to be backed up by observations or it simply is not science. The above is not an argument to get evolution out of public schools. It is an argument to provide science teachers with better support and tools so that it can be presented in an appropriate way.

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[ May 08, 2003: Message edited by: HCIsland ]
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Old 05-10-2003, 11:55 AM   #47
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This whole censorship thing is a bit like what the Taliban did. Under their rule you were not allowed to Dance, sing, listen to music. Many books were burnt because they were thought to be unpure. Its all crazy, there are people in this world that take the teachings from their respective Holy books completely out of context, or just deliberatley misread them so that they can justify their actions.
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Old 05-11-2003, 05:04 PM   #48
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I must disagree. The Taliban was a governmental regime. These are private organizations consisting of people who agree with the censorships.

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Old 05-12-2003, 09:18 AM   #49
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And many of them are small legalistic church schools that are so narrow minded that the very mention of a wizard denotes witchcraft. I am saying this cause i just met this guy in my CS 150 class that goes to one of these small legalistic churches (I am Baptist by the way and I am not as bad as this) He says that just because there are "wizards" in the LOTR that he won't read it because he stays away from that. I know that the books were written from the views of Hobbits and I expressed this. I also expressed the fact that the wizards were Istari and not human and therefor had different powers than were given to the children of Iluvitar. I also brought in a book that explained all of this better than I could.( another one that my Baptist, missionaries widow,grandmother wants to steal from me. Mussssst have itsss my presssioussss!) But like I said its these small legalistic church schools that ban good books like this, or just the legalistic churches. My mother, a teacher in the public school system and Baptist, is showing her class the old animated movies for the end of the year. She was also obsessed with them when she was around my age and all that stuff, and she genuinely likes all of this stuff. But still I think that a head honcho should read the books and books about the books before making a horrendous decision like that of those small fascist torture chambers.(by-the-way, I hate legalists. I mean they bother me. They tend to act like the Pharisees and Sagacious)

[ May 12, 2003: Message edited by: Annalaliath ]
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Old 05-12-2003, 12:33 PM   #50
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This whole censorship thing is a bit like what the Taliban did. Under their rule you were not allowed to Dance, sing, listen to music.
I don't quite agree. I think I get your line of thought, but a. there's a big difference betweenrules and laws, and b. Just by banning Tolkien, I don't really think that a school goes to the extent of the Taliban.

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Old 05-12-2003, 04:35 PM   #51
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About legalists, I agree that they have the wrong mindset, but be careful (it is better to persuade than offend). I also believe that we have no right to judge others, as only God can do such. We can label their actions: good or bad, right or wrong; but we cannot judge their persons until we have lived their lives and felt their struggles.

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Old 05-12-2003, 04:37 PM   #52
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Well, I believe that, but it's more or less only in theory, because it's much harder to actually do that, and live that way. Of course, I try to, and most of us do, but we're only human.

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Old 05-12-2003, 04:45 PM   #53
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Iarwain, it is sometimes necessary to judge people. To be precise, we pay people called judges to do so, in order to uphold the laws of our land. Not to mention juries, who are also asked to stand in judgement on our behalf. (In the assumption that you are American)in your country, you even ask people to make judgements which result in the death of another.

And I think the comparison with the Taliban is valid, as was mine with the burning of the library of Alexandria. These schools do not ban Tolkien in isolation, their ban is part of a wider programme of censorship, dance-banning and so on.

[ May 12, 2003: Message edited by: Lalaith ]
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Old 05-12-2003, 08:04 PM   #54
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I know that i should not judge, i am trying to persued a few people. But that is just what i personaly think. i have gone to one of those tiny shcools with a legalist fro the principal. frankly i am terrafied of enclosed spaces and that was about five or six years ago! What i was tring to say was exactly what my grandmother said about this topic when i braught it up to her. ( please excuse the typoes, the demons are after me and i am on a funky computer that i am scared of opening anyhting else up on. in short no spell check.)
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Old 05-12-2003, 08:31 PM   #55
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Wow, I am very shocked to hear about this blatant disregard for such a wonderful book and Genre! Shouldn't schools be encouraging people to read? And I would very much like to hear the logic behind the idea that reading about the demolition of evil encourages Satanic worship!AGGGGHHH [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img]!This topic is something I feel very strongly about, because, as a student who very much likes to read, I think that students should be being encouraged to read different genres and styles by teachers; it's their duty!
Luckily, at my school, the teachers are not that strict(at least not in the Tolkien aspect), and I can usually have an interesting conversation about the books with teachers who have read them. Also, as we all know, Tolkien was a devotedly religous man, so he would have never written the books with intentional religious disregard. Right, thats my go on the matter, Next!
~nat~ [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
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Old 05-13-2003, 03:35 AM   #56
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If you were to argue with a legalist or fundamentalist on this issue, it would be no good arguing Tolkien's case on the grounds that he was a devout Christian.
Charles Darwin was a devout Christian too, til the end of his days. And that hasn't helped keep his works off the censorship list.
Incidently, Iarwain, I would disagree with you that the teaching of the theory of evolution offends billions around the world. No disrespect to you or your beliefs, but this problem with evolution is primarily one among American Christians. In the UK and Europe, most mainstream Christians are not creationist -only a few sects such as Jehovah's Witnesses dispute evolution.
I'm afraid to tell you that as of his announcement in 1996, even the Pope believes Darwin was right!
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Old 05-13-2003, 08:17 AM   #57
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I guess banning books such as Tolkien is the way some people believe they will help people.

Matt

PS If God gave the world to men to look after and men evolved from apes then didn't he give the world to apes? I'm no Christian, just saying...
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Old 05-13-2003, 09:20 AM   #58
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Quote:
Pharisees and Sagacious
Aw, Annalaliath, that was cute to the point of being charming! But I think you meant to say "Sadducees". Too cute...

Mattius, if a reader takes Genesis 1 through 3 seriously and literally (some do, some don't; personally I do) then mankind and apes look more related than they are, and in that case, your logic doesn't follow. But I love ya for bringing it up; you're a creative sort! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
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Old 05-13-2003, 11:11 AM   #59
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Thankfully, my school (in Scotland) doesn't impose rules like that. Through primary and secondary school, I've always been encouraged to both read and write as much as I like, and I were never restricted.

Our library is pretty good at having a wide range as well - nothing's censored, as far as I know, we have LotR, Harry Potter, a variety, really. Although I still say we need all of HoME on the shelves [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Incidentally, I've only really heard about books being censored in the US, never in the UK.
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Old 05-13-2003, 09:19 PM   #60
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I'm sorry, but I read Laliath's post, and I must respond before I forget. In my country there are places where some people choose others to die. I do not, however, believe in capital punishment. I think that it is not in human hands that a criminal should die. Their judgment and their punishment lie with God.

Suddenly, I'm seeing you as the narrowminded one. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Juries do not pass a final punishment for crimes commited, they are merely trying to prevent other crimes from being commited. And YES, there IS a difference between these schools and the taliban. These schools are not forcing others conform to their restrictions and beliefs. My friend, your logic seems quite twisted to me. Please explain (if you haven't already).

Iarwain

P.S. I read the other posts, and I'm beginning to realize how closed minded some of you are. Mattius, I hate to say this (and I appologize for doing so) but if you don't have an educated opinion or something intelligent to contribute, wait until you can better support generalized statement before you comment.

[ May 13, 2003: Message edited by: Iarwain ]
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Old 05-14-2003, 04:43 AM   #61
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Iarwain, for what it's worth, you and I have the same opinions on capital punishment...
As for your other points, juries do judge, they have to judge whether someone is innocent or guilty. But your own position of not judging others is an admirable one.
As for these schools not forcing others, the people who run them are of course not in a position of authority over anyone but their students. But what if they were...
I wonder what Tolkien himself would have made of all this. He was, like a lot of mid 20th century writers, preoccupied with tyranny, but unlike writers such as Orwell, did not as far as I remember make literary links between tyranny and censorship. Unlike Big Brother, I don't think Morgoth, Sauron or Saruman ever practiced censorship - the visible evidence of their tyranny was environmental ruin and enslavement.
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Old 05-15-2003, 03:11 PM   #62
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Hey don't blame me- that was a view from my R.E. teacher! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

On what Tolkien would have made of it I am sure he would be against such cencorship. He was a devout Christian and so were his children whom he originally wrote for.
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Old 05-15-2003, 03:36 PM   #63
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Also- about the comparison with the Taliban- you weren't allowed to leave from there. You could leave your school, or at least most people can.

~Menelien

PS- just a comment-
Quote:
PS If God gave the world to men to look after and men evolved from apes then didn't he give the world to apes? I'm no Christian, just saying...
Mattius- I believe you've been reading Douglas Adams, and a lot of him too [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] Or maybe another guy like him.
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Old 05-15-2003, 06:16 PM   #64
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Quote:
PS If God gave the world to men to look after and men evolved from apes then didn't he give the world to apes? I'm no Christian, just saying...
Evolution does not state that men evolved from apes. It states that men and apes evolved from a common ancestor.

By the way, the world doesn't belong to man or apes. It belongs to itself. We are just short term tenants.

As for this particular school banning Tolkien. I would be extremely offended at a public school making such a move and would speak vehemently oppose it, but a private school is certainly free to set it's own philosophy on such issues. Those going to the school (or at least their parents) know the beliefs of the school up front and so are aware of this going in. In fact, it is very possibly the reason they are there. A public school is a completely different issue.

Now I work in the independent school system, but my school's very liberal (if it wasn't I wouldn't be there). If a new headmaster popped in and began implementing this kind of stuff I, and many of my co-workers, would be seriously reconsidering our place of employment.

In the private system you can always vote with your feet.

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Old 05-15-2003, 08:06 PM   #65
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As I am homeschooled, I would like to proudly say that Tolkien is all over our house and the walls are not ashamed!

No book has been removed from our school except for the Harry Potter ones, those being of true "witch craft" says my father. I myself am also a born again christian and share the view of my father. I have a point of view that most (private and christian)schools don't dare to make though, if I am truely rooted in my belife, than why should I need to abstain from the reading of that book, or any which contains witch craft of sorts, it cannot harm me, nor can it control me or change me, and by no means can it change what I belive. Does that make sense to you guys?
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Old 05-15-2003, 09:05 PM   #66
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It's so funny when Evolution goes so far to explain the existence of life, space, and matter, but it still reaches the same problem (left unexplained) that Christianity explaines in full. That is, creation. We are all created beings, but what happens when we seek our own origins? There are splits in the road, but they both go over some of the same bumps. In our imaginations and our ideas of reality, everything has both a beginning and an end. What came before the universe? It is unimaginable. When was God created? He wasn't, so we are left with the idea of and endless existence similiar to the idea of an evolutionary universe. Both go out as factors for judging each other, and we are left with evolution as a simple state of existence that goes from nothing, or less than nothing, to an infinite amount of somethings, and then (presumably) back into that nothing of nothings again. Or, if we choose creationism, we are left with an infinite something creating infinitely more somethings who will, in the end become infinite nothings or greater bits of somethings that are united with the great and infinite something. I'm realizing that I have a strong capability to make mathematical analogies and illustrations. I hope no one makes fun... [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

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Old 05-15-2003, 09:13 PM   #67
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Why, by the way, Sophia, would the films have resulted in the banning of the books when they weren't banned before?
I haven't been in for a long while, but I wanted to answer Lalaith's question, so:

I think that had the administrators of the school been aware of Tolkien they'd have banned the books. With all the publicity of the films, the administrators would certainly have been aware. There wasn't a "need" to ban them when nobody knew about them (except me, but I wasn't telling [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]).

This has gone real off topic guys [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] as good as the discussion is...

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Old 05-16-2003, 05:18 AM   #68
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Iarwain, Sophia is right. This discussion is fascinating but isn't really appropriate for this place.
Sophia, back to topic...whoosh! Yes, I can see the increased publicity would have made your school aware of the books but I'm still not clear what would have pressed the 'censorship' button. The mere presence of wizards and elves?
Arafangwen - you make perfect sense. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[ May 16, 2003: Message edited by: Lalaith ]
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Old 05-16-2003, 01:15 PM   #69
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I suppose Sophia is right, Lalaith. I'll cease contribution for now then, because as far as I see, the original subject has already been explained and explored. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

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Old 05-16-2003, 01:39 PM   #70
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Just to let people know that when P.J. put that whole wizard fight between Gandalf and Sauaman, some people automatically thought that that was in the books. A lady in my photo class said that she saw magic in the previews and that is why she won't even read the books. I did explain to her the whole that was just Peter Jackson bit but she still didn't believe me. So people see the previews of the movies and think that the books have just the same amount of magic in them. But we all must remember Tolkien was concerned that he put too much magic in the books so we can't say that there isn't any.

I think that this is the whole reason for a lot of the book Nazi stuff. The censers are moving towards A Brave New World, where even Shakespeare is outlawed.
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Old 05-16-2003, 05:28 PM   #71
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I'd dissagree, however. The World State was an example of dehumanization: cutting out emotions, the need for human interaction, and any chance for personal choice. If the right censors take power (none of them are going to, other than the wrong ones) we would end up in a world where love is joy and life is a celebration of the Glory of God. Even if they did take power, actually none of this would happen, because there would be rebellions everywhere. The world is degenerate and will never reach any perfect ideal (by human means) without eliminating humanity.

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Old 05-16-2003, 05:41 PM   #72
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we would end up in a world where love is joy and life is a celebration of the Glory of God.
Even if that did happen, there would always be places to closedminded to not lift bans, and also, that wouldn't be a separation of church and state. As for the books- maybe very religious schools, or schools with strict (though not necessarily religious) beliefs may ban certain books, whether Tolkien or otherwise, and parents may know and agree, but who's the one going to school? Nobody asked the child whether they want Tolkien banned... of course, that wouldn't be fair either, and it couldn't in any conceivable way be fair. The kindergardener wouldn't know who Tolkien was. But the kindergardeners parents wouldn't know what their child's decision would have been had they been older, and decide for them. There isn't really a fair way for banning or not, I don't think.

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Old 05-16-2003, 06:01 PM   #73
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In the end, it all becomes a mess of what we don't want at all. People cannot fix the world for others, they can only do it for themselves and through themselves. Censorship tends to be ridiculous, because if there is sufficient, logical doctrine against certain subject matter, it is much more beneficial to explain the reason for rejection of ideas than to merely restrict young ones from it without doing so. In fact, unexplained censorship defeats its own purpose, because while they do not understand why something is wrong, they might take bans as illogical and override the explained and the unexplained teachings of the censors in a mad rush of curiousity.

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Old 06-14-2005, 11:48 AM   #74
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Over the past hour or so as I've read this and some related threads, I've come to realize what a fascinating country I dwell in. We love our freedom to be offended just as much as we love our freedom of speech.

I've been looking over some lists of banned and/or challenged books and have come across the most unlikely titles, from "The Merchant of Venice" (oh, that wicked, wicked Shakespeare!) to "Where the Sidewalk Ends" (funny poems for children). Many of the books I've seen have been required reading for me, such as "A Farewell to Arms," "The Catcher in the Rye," "Death of a Salesman," "Flowers for Algernon," etc. I could keep going. I think its a shame that the offense taken by a few people ruins it for everyone.

Another thing I've come to appreciate is how much I love attending public school, where just about anything is acceptable (except drugs, drinking, smoking on campus, and the like). Some girls I know just formed a book club that I joined, and the first book we decided to read was "The Perks of Being a Wallflower". This book has been challenged or banned in the past, but there were three lovely copies in our school library. Apparently our school has this principle that even if you're not supposed to teach about certain books in class, students still cannot be denied access to them. I like this idea very much.

I did not come across LotR in any recent book lists, so I guess it has not become too big of an issue like HP did. I just have a difficult time comprehending any kind of book banning, never mind LotR!
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Old 06-16-2005, 11:57 AM   #75
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One problem with public schools, however, is that they often object to things that do not agree with a secular humanist world view. I've gone to public schools my whole life, and have experienced this first hand. I live in a very liberal city, where we were banned from reciting the Pledge of Allegiance in school for a time. because it contained the words "Under God." The words of the national anthem were banned as well, because they were too "militaristic." Fortunately, both these rules were taken away, but that sort of mindset still remains. It can be very difficult if your parents do not want you reading/watching some things required in school. I had to talk to my teacher and explain that my parents didn't want me watching R-rated movies, and this teacher was very suprised. My parents had been quite upset that he had us watch an R-rated movie in class without telling the students, much less parents.

The point of this post is to say that although mostly restrictions imposed by very conservative schools have been discussed in this thread, just as many restrictions come from the other side as well. Just my two cents.
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Old 06-16-2005, 12:45 PM   #76
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Oro, it sounds a lot like the town I'm from. We all have to be politically correct lest someone jump down out throats, but all the most sensitive politically "correct" topics (homosexuality, abortion, witchcraft, etc.) are taboo just the same. I get pinned all the time at my Liberal, public Highschool.

In the case with the book bannings, my highschool would never dare step a toe so far out into the community to ban fiction books (Harry Potter and LOTR are in full stock on our shelves), however, one mother spoke up in the local editorials one Sunday and changed everything. She said it was inapropriate to have Bibles on School shelves. She went on 3 or 4 paragraphs explaining why. All rediculous of me, a learned woman of the world. I'm actually sitting in my school library looking at all the books lining the shelves...books on teen pregnancy, teen love, and one I just noticed called "Call of the Mall". This is our supported, politically correct culture!?

Also, through all of this contraversy pertaining to LOTR and Harry Potter pointing kids in the direction of Paganism, I can't help but wonder why the Wiccans and whatnot aren't getting as public as, say, those Christian Fundamentalists who ban babies' bottoms from satirical late night cartoon shows.

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm sick of this, I'd rather just go read those bad books.
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