Best Fighter

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I think we are looking at this from the wrong angle. Let's take Hurin and Turin as our examples.

Can we really say that one was better than the other? Say we work out that Hurin was 0.00001% better than his son. Does that mean that if they played out a one-on-one fight 100 times that Hurin would always win? Of course not.

Hurin might have been disturbed during his sleep last night and so not quite as prepared as Turin. Turin might step in the one little puddle on the ground thus losing his balance ever so slightly during a critical point of the fight.

So for two similar cases, (Hurin and Turin, Legolas and Gimli, Boromir and Faramir) I think it's inappropriate to conclude that one is a better fighter than the other.

It's like in football: Brazil and Argentina are two of the best in the world right now. But circumstances dictate; I would not say that one team is better than the other because the two have proved in recent times that they can both defeat the other. Neither is best, they are two of the best, and possibly the two best.

There are clear cut cases: Aragorn is a better fighter than Gamling, say. As for the original list, we can eliminate some. Get rid of Legolas and Gimli, obviously. Hurin and Turin would come very near the top of everyone's list, but there's no definitive order to place those two. All we can really say is that Hurin and Turin are near the top, not which one is at the top.


EDIT: For the sake of argument (i.e. my argument) let's just suppose that Hurin and Turin were on the original list.

Ah, we've moved on to the history of Middle-earth by now, right? Right? You all saw it, I didn't start it! If you don't want to, then my points are still applicable. Just sub Hurin and Turin with....um.....'Gorn and Boromir.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Think of other things going on in somebody's life and mind during a battle.

Aragorn: "If I lose this battle, my world will be destroyed, my foster father will be disappointed, I will be dead, I will lose all chances of spending the rest of my natural life with my soul mate, my friends will be killed."

That's a lot of pressure, don't you think? But even so, look at the comparison for later:

"If I lose this battle, I will have died fighting to save my country, the people I love, and goodness everywhere. And my sacrifice may just give my friends the time they need to succeed where I can not."

Aragorn is arguably the best fighter of the 3rd Age. Not only is he physically powerful, but he has mentally combatted Sauron and come out on top. Also, he has strove with the above thoughts and pressures and still emerged victorious. These stresses alone are enough to break a normal man, but Aragorn cast aside all selfishness and marched to battle, pitying lesser men rather than scorning them, in a diversion that should have cost him everything.

But don't just look at my reasoning and agree with me, because where is the fun of that? Think of the stresses and psychological stuff going on with our heroes, and then relate to me [us] who you think is the best fighter given personal circumstances.

[lord of dor-lomin]

Say we work out that Hurin was 0.00001% better than his son. Does that mean that if they played out a one-on-one fight 100 times that Hurin would always win? Of course not.

Entirely true. Then again, figuring out that Hurin is "0.00001%" better than Turin is exactly what this thread is for, since he would be, by a small margin, a better fighter.

Not that I think Hurin is. I'd be inclined to give Turin the edge, but you're right that they both should be near the top (if not at the top).

Gil-Galad, Aragorn, Eowyn and Elindil

Leave Eowyn off and it might be a decent list. And saying "Elendil" would make it even better.

Eowyn may not seem that good

Because she's not good enough to be on that list.

but she did kill the Witch-King

She happened to be the one standing there when he was made vulnerable by Merry's magic sword.

not that many people could have done that

Rosie Cotton could've done that.

Stab the guy in the face with a sword while he's just sitting there. Who can't do that?

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

I agree, to a point, with LoDL about Eowyn. Although she's got the shield-maiden status going for her, her defeat of the Wikkie was almost a given.

1) she had the prophecy going for her. You can see my opinions on prophecies on this thread.

2) she had a shield. He had a big scary mace, yes, and yeah, it broke her arm, but physically, all she did was stop it. She didn't counter it, she didn't take it from him per force, she just stopped it.

3) his main weapon was fear. Her fear for her uncle's life (or at least honorable death) simply over-powered her fear of the big scary jerk.

Sure, she's great. I'm not denying it. Heck, Eowyn's one of my favorite characters. But she's certainly not one of the best fighters. One of the most stubborn, sure; but one of the most careless as well. Being an emotional and slightly suicidal gal doesn't qualify you to rank with Aragorn, Gil-Galad, or those other guys for best fighter status.

Perhaps its better to think of it in sections:

Magic and Melee

In magic it'd be Gandalf and perhaps you should divide Melee up again into close range weponry and long range. But thats just my opinion..

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

By the 'we' I mentioned in "we work out that Hurin was 0.00001% better" I meant 'silly people'.

I would have thought the absurdity of such a conclusion was apparent.

You are totally right about Eowyn. Fantastic though she is, it is silly to consider her one of the very best fighters of the stories.

[Anguirel]

I am now addressing all the first-time readers of LOTR who were fooled by Eowyn's disguise.

As "Dernhelm", didn't Eowyn seem like the most deadly, suave, fearless and tremendous warrior we'd seen for quite a few pages?

Had she stayed Dernhelm, wouldn't we think the mysterious Rider's deed extremely impressive?

Aren't we slightly degrading her feat because we know who she is, her background, her inexperience...most damningly, her chromosomes?

"If some girl can do that, why, a turnip can."

Sounds to me like:

"If some hobbit can just toss in a ring, Sauron can be conquered by the average blue tit."

Don't belittle her achievement. She did finish Glorfindel's job and avenge the last King of Gondor. She did what we would have expected Aragorn to do; what was partly his ancestral duty to do. Alright, Master Holbylta rendered the Witch-king mortal; but it was Eowyn who rendered him dead.

Alright. That said, I do not think her the greatest fighter in the Lord of the Rings, a title I'd prefer to give to her brother...

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Eowyn needs no defense, sir. It's just that she shouldn't really be on this thread. Although the mention of Pippin earlier was definitely sillier!

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Don't belittle her achievement.

I'm not. And I'm not saying she's not awesome solely because of gender. Quite honestly, my chromosomes are screaming that Galadriel's got the best fighter status.

She took one of the 3rd Age's best fighters (Boromir) and with thought alone messed him up.

In physical contests back in the old Valinorian days, she won all the time.

She had the power to guard and use a ring of power without curruption, and admits on her own that had she the One, she could have ousted Sauron. Even without that extra power, she still keeps Lothlorien safe and secret.

And if you want physical prowess, she marched to Mirkwood beside Celeborn, leading their troops, and personal vanquished Dol Goldur.