LotR -- Book 5 - Chapter 02 - The Passing of the Grey Company

[HerenIstarion]

What I'm going to put down is a speculation, or impression rather.

What Aragorn does, if fighting fire with fire as he puts against Sauron forces similar to his own

What Isildur has done, seems a repetition on a minor scale of what Sauron has done to his Ringwraiths, so oathbreakers leave an impression (left on me when I pondered the subject) of neither alive nor dead rather than dead proper.

It is just as good that in fighting fire with fire, Aragorn extinguishes both fires. Rare case, as usually the excersise is likely to bring more fire about

[Lhunardawen]

What authority does Isildur have to keep the Dead from completely departing from Middle Earth? After all, he himself is merely a Man. I think Eru and the Valar may have in some way sanctioned Isildur's curse, to give the Dead a chance to turn from the dark side.

[davem]

Originally Posted by HerenIstarion

What Isildur has done, seems a repetition on a minor scale of what Sauron has done to his Ringwraiths, so oathbreakers leave an impression (left on me when I pondered the subject) of neither alive nor dead rather than dead proper.

It is just as good that in fighting fire with fire, Aragorn extinguishes both fires. Rare case, as usually the excersise is likely to bring more fire about

My post(s) proper on this thread will have to wait till next week, but on this point it seems to me that what Sauron has done to the Ringwraiths seems pretty much summed up by the WK's threat to Eowyn - 'Thy flesh shall be devoured, & thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye.' In other words, he is threatening her with the fate he & his compatriots have themselves suffered - that she will be made a wraith.

I suppose it adds a poignancy to his words, & brings out the horror of his own existence. I wonder if there was a hint of regret & suffering in his words to her. On one level he is describing his own state - but more of that, perhaps, in the relevant chapter.

Whether this is similar to what Isildur caused to happen to the Oathbreakers is another question. Clearly, even if it is similar, it is not the same, as they retain a hope of redemption. Perhaps this is because they did not surrender to Sauron completely, merely refused to fight against him. They seem to have refused to serve the Good, rather than actively choosing to serve the Bad - a sin of omission, rather than comission.

Surely their flesh was 'devoured' & their minds/spirits left 'naked', but not to the Lidless Eye. They are bound to their Oath, their sworn word, not to Isildur himself. It is not so much, in my opinion, that Isildur, or even Eru, has rescinded their 'Gift', but rather that they themselves have bound themselve to a course of action in the world & that they cannot leave the world till that Oath is fulfilled. As we speculated in the 'Oaths & Oathbreaking' thread, it seems that Oaths in Middle earth had a power over those who swear them - even if they swear in fear. Their Oath binds them & it overrides the gift till it is worked through.

So, in short, I don't think the gift was rescinded or overridden, merely put on hold till they could do what they swore to do. Its almost like, as Bilbo & Smeagol experienced with the Ring - they didn't get more life, they just 'continued' existing. Their bodies died but their spirits (the part of them that swore the Oath, if you like) just 'continued', till the thing that bound them within the circles of the world had been removed.

Long way of saying I think H-I is right

[Lalwendë]

Something odd which may explain an earlier part of LotR struck me in this chapter. When the Dunedain are riding up this is the description:

The pursuers brought their steeds to a sudden stand. A silence followed; and then in the moonlight, a horseman could be seen dismounting and walking slowly forward. His hand showed white as he held it up, palm outward, in token of peace; but the king's men gripped their weapons. At ten paces the man stopped. He was tall, a dark standing shadow. Then his clear voice rang out.

Then Merry has the following thoughts:

Merry breathed a sigh of relief. He had thought that this was some last trick of Saruman's, to waylay the king while he had only a few men about him

To me it is clear that the upheld, white hand must be some sign of peace in Middle Earth, certainly amongst the Dunedain, and as likely as not a universal sign amongst Men, or else it would not have been given. Yet the sign is viewed with suspicion and immediately I thought of Saruman's 'white hand' symbol. This is then backed up by the fear that Merry felt, as he associates the symbol with Saruman himself.

There was discussion about what Saruman's white hand symbol might mean, and this has made me think that perhaps Saruman made use of pre-existing gesture of friendship and peace in order to create his own symbol. His symbol was made in mockery of the sign for peace between Men, or did he utilise it at first to win their confidence and trust?

[Lhunardawen]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

His symbol was made in mockery of the sign for peace between Men, or did he utilise it at first to win their confidence and trust?

He may not have actively done so, but Saruman sought to win Rohan's friendship - and with it their confidence and trust - through Grima. The rest of the Rohirrim may not have trusted him, but Theoden did and that's all that matters. In view of this, it's interesting that the Ents toppled the 'statue' of the White Hand, as if saying that they have seen through his deceit and they are permanently cutting off any friendship they used to have with Saruman.

It's funny, though, how Halbarad's hands showed white while his shadow was dark, like he was indeliberately used to see if the Rohirrim have really learned their lesson!

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

I had this theory regarding the fate of the Dead Men:

It had been held lawful only for the King of Númenor to call Eru to witness, and then only on the most grave and solemn occasions. The line of the Kings came to an end in Ar-Pharazôn who perished in the Downfall; but Elendil Voronda was descended from Tar-Elendil the fourth King, and was held to be the rightful lord of the Faithful, who had taken no part in the rebellion of the Kings and had been preserved from destruction.

UT III 2 - endnote 44

Perhaps the people of the King of the Mountains had sworn an oath not dissimilar to the one sworn by Éorl to Cirion. And since both Isildur and Cirion called Eru in witness, any effects of those oaths will be upheld by Eru. (Me--from Strange Curses!)

Of course, why Eru would intervene on behalf of Isildur is something I do not know. Unless he knows that someday, some ragged, rugged King-wannabe would want ride off to his rightful kingdom with some sort of an army. I think this goes in with his style, for if you remember he tells Melkor (and perhaps that word is for all who follow in his path) that:

. . . [T]hou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined

Ainulindalë

[Celuien]

'Shall I always be chosen?' she said bitterly. 'Shall I always be left behind when the Riders depart, to mind the house while they win renown, and find food and beds when they return?'
'A time may come soon,' said he, 'when none will return. Then there will be need of valour without renown, for none shall remember the deeds that are done in the last defence of your homes. Yet the deeds will not be less valiant because they are unpraised.'
And she answered: 'All your words are but to say: you are a woman, and your part is in the house. But when the men have died in battle and honour,
you have leave to be burned in the house, for the men will need it no more.
But I am of the House of Eorl and not a serving-woman. I can ride and wield blade, and I do not fear either pain or death.'
'What do you fear, lady?' he asked.
'A cage,' she said. 'To stay behind bars, until use and old age accept them, and all chance of doing great deeds is gone beyond recall or desire.'
'And yet you counselled me not to adventure on the road that I had chosen, because it is perilous?'
'So may one counsel another,' she said. 'Yet I do not bid you flee from peril, but to ride to battle where your sword may win renown and victory. Would not see a thing that is high and excellent cast away needlessly.'
'Nor would I,' he said. 'Therefore I say to you, lady: Stay! For you have no errand to the South.'
'Neither have those others who go with thee. They go only because they would not be parted from thee – because they love thee.' Then she turned and vanished into the night.

Éowyn's anger and bitterness stands out for me here. I think it also shows some the reason for her attraction to Aragorn, as the head miltary leader and future king. But I also think her confusion shows as well: she says that the others who are going with him go only because they love him, as she believes she does. She isn't differentiating the type of love for a leader from the type of love for a spouse. I thought this was an interesting letter about Éowyn's feelings:

Letter 244:
Eowyn: it is possible to love more than one person (of the other sex) at the same time, but in a different mode and intensity. I do not think that Eowyn’s feeling for Aragorn really changed much: and when he was revealed as so lofty a figure, in descent and office, she was able to go on loving and admiring him. He was old, and that is not only a physical quality: when not accompanied by any physical decay age can be alarming or awe-inspiring. Also she was not herself ambitious in the true political sense. Through not a ‘dry nurse’ in temper, she was also not really a soldier or ‘amazon’, but like many brave women was capable of great military gallantry at crisis.

I suppose she learns the difference later after meeting Faramir in Minas Tirith since her feelings never actually change.

Something that stood out in the conversation with Aragorn was Éowyn's sudden use of thee instead of you. The only other instance where she uses that word was in a cermonial salute to Theoden after his recovery. I'm wondering if the sudden switch was intentional to show familiarity after she declares her love for Aragorn or if the appearance is more related to style changes in the chapter.

[Aldarion Elf-Friend]

Originally Posted by Celuien

Something that stood out in the conversation with Aragorn was Éowyn's sudden use of thee instead of you. The only other instance where she uses that word was in a cermonial salute to Theoden after his recovery. I'm wondering if the sudden switch was intentional to show familiarity after she declares her love for Aragorn or if the appearance is more related to style changes in the chapter.

I don't have the books in front of my right now, but in one of the appendices, the one on the languages of Middle Earth, Tolkien explains that when the English translation switches to the more formal "thees" and "thous" it indicates that the characters have switched to an older, more formal version of their language.

Maybe someone with the books handy can elaborate.