LotR -- Book 5 - Chapter 02 - The Passing of the Grey Company

[Celuien]

Originally Posted by Aldarion Elf-Friend

I got the impression that the denial of the gift of men was a curse based on their earlier treachery. Aragorn offered them a chance to redeem themselves and thus be released to wherever men go when they die.

It does seem that the reason is Isildur's curse:

But the oath that they broke was to fight against Sauron, and they must fight therefore, if they are to fulfil it. For at Erech there stands yet a black stone that was brought, it was said, from Númenor by Isildur; and it was set upon a hill, and upon it the King of the Mountains swore allegiance to him in the beginning of the realm of Gondor. But when Sauron returned and grew in might again, Isildur summoned the Men of the Mountains to fulfil their oath, and they would not: for they had worshipped Sauron in the Dark Years.

Then Isildur said to their king: "Thou shalt be the last king. And if the West prove mightier than thy Black Master, this curse I lay upon thee and thy folk: to rest never until your oath is fulfilled. For this war will last through years uncounted, and you shall be summoned once again ere the end."

This gets back to the importance of oaths and oathbreaking. The Dead are bound by their promise, and so long as it remains unfulfilled, they must remain. However, I don't think it is within Isildur's power to keep them from going on to their ultimate fate. Sauron's keeping the Nazgul is the only other example I can think of where the sprits of Men have been prevented from passing beyond the world. Wild thought: having sworn their oaths, perhaps Eru has stepped in to temporarily rescind the gift until they make good on the oath.

[Kuruharan]

Wild thought: having sworn their oaths, perhaps Eru has stepped in to temporarily rescind the gift until they make good on the oath

I'm not too sure about that. Doesn't Tolkien say that Eru only directly intervened in the breaking of Numenor and the return of Gandalf? Keeping the spirits of the dead in Middle earth was not something the Valar were empowered of themselves to do (although they apparently could.)

As I said, it is a very problematic part of the story.

[Celuien]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I'm not too sure about that. Doesn't Tolkien say that Eru only directly intervened in the breaking of Numenor and the return of Gandalf? Keeping the spirits of the dead in Middle earth was not something the Valar were empowered of themselves to do (although they apparently could.)

As I said, it is a very problematic part of the story.

Well, like I said, it's just a wild thought. Quite a problematic part of the story.

Maybe stepping in isn't quite the right term. Something more along the lines of triggering a consequence pathway related to swearing their oath would be more accurate. And there is the issue of who does have the authority to keep the dead in Middle earth, since neither the Valar or descendants of Isildur can be responsible.

I'll have to look around for the statements on direct intervention - no time to check just now...

[HerenIstarion]

What I'm going to put down is a speculation, or impression rather.

What Aragorn does, if fighting fire with fire as he puts against Sauron forces similar to his own

What Isildur has done, seems a repetition on a minor scale of what Sauron has done to his Ringwraiths, so oathbreakers leave an impression (left on me when I pondered the subject) of neither alive nor dead rather than dead proper.

It is just as good that in fighting fire with fire, Aragorn extinguishes both fires. Rare case, as usually the excersise is likely to bring more fire about

[Lhunardawen]

What authority does Isildur have to keep the Dead from completely departing from Middle Earth? After all, he himself is merely a Man. I think Eru and the Valar may have in some way sanctioned Isildur's curse, to give the Dead a chance to turn from the dark side.

[davem]

Originally Posted by HerenIstarion

What Isildur has done, seems a repetition on a minor scale of what Sauron has done to his Ringwraiths, so oathbreakers leave an impression (left on me when I pondered the subject) of neither alive nor dead rather than dead proper.

It is just as good that in fighting fire with fire, Aragorn extinguishes both fires. Rare case, as usually the excersise is likely to bring more fire about

My post(s) proper on this thread will have to wait till next week, but on this point it seems to me that what Sauron has done to the Ringwraiths seems pretty much summed up by the WK's threat to Eowyn - 'Thy flesh shall be devoured, & thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye.' In other words, he is threatening her with the fate he & his compatriots have themselves suffered - that she will be made a wraith.

I suppose it adds a poignancy to his words, & brings out the horror of his own existence. I wonder if there was a hint of regret & suffering in his words to her. On one level he is describing his own state - but more of that, perhaps, in the relevant chapter.

Whether this is similar to what Isildur caused to happen to the Oathbreakers is another question. Clearly, even if it is similar, it is not the same, as they retain a hope of redemption. Perhaps this is because they did not surrender to Sauron completely, merely refused to fight against him. They seem to have refused to serve the Good, rather than actively choosing to serve the Bad - a sin of omission, rather than comission.

Surely their flesh was 'devoured' & their minds/spirits left 'naked', but not to the Lidless Eye. They are bound to their Oath, their sworn word, not to Isildur himself. It is not so much, in my opinion, that Isildur, or even Eru, has rescinded their 'Gift', but rather that they themselves have bound themselve to a course of action in the world & that they cannot leave the world till that Oath is fulfilled. As we speculated in the 'Oaths & Oathbreaking' thread, it seems that Oaths in Middle earth had a power over those who swear them - even if they swear in fear. Their Oath binds them & it overrides the gift till it is worked through.

So, in short, I don't think the gift was rescinded or overridden, merely put on hold till they could do what they swore to do. Its almost like, as Bilbo & Smeagol experienced with the Ring - they didn't get more life, they just 'continued' existing. Their bodies died but their spirits (the part of them that swore the Oath, if you like) just 'continued', till the thing that bound them within the circles of the world had been removed.

Long way of saying I think H-I is right

[Lalwendë]

Something odd which may explain an earlier part of LotR struck me in this chapter. When the Dunedain are riding up this is the description:

The pursuers brought their steeds to a sudden stand. A silence followed; and then in the moonlight, a horseman could be seen dismounting and walking slowly forward. His hand showed white as he held it up, palm outward, in token of peace; but the king's men gripped their weapons. At ten paces the man stopped. He was tall, a dark standing shadow. Then his clear voice rang out.

Then Merry has the following thoughts:

Merry breathed a sigh of relief. He had thought that this was some last trick of Saruman's, to waylay the king while he had only a few men about him

To me it is clear that the upheld, white hand must be some sign of peace in Middle Earth, certainly amongst the Dunedain, and as likely as not a universal sign amongst Men, or else it would not have been given. Yet the sign is viewed with suspicion and immediately I thought of Saruman's 'white hand' symbol. This is then backed up by the fear that Merry felt, as he associates the symbol with Saruman himself.

There was discussion about what Saruman's white hand symbol might mean, and this has made me think that perhaps Saruman made use of pre-existing gesture of friendship and peace in order to create his own symbol. His symbol was made in mockery of the sign for peace between Men, or did he utilise it at first to win their confidence and trust?

[Lhunardawen]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

His symbol was made in mockery of the sign for peace between Men, or did he utilise it at first to win their confidence and trust?

He may not have actively done so, but Saruman sought to win Rohan's friendship - and with it their confidence and trust - through Grima. The rest of the Rohirrim may not have trusted him, but Theoden did and that's all that matters. In view of this, it's interesting that the Ents toppled the 'statue' of the White Hand, as if saying that they have seen through his deceit and they are permanently cutting off any friendship they used to have with Saruman.

It's funny, though, how Halbarad's hands showed white while his shadow was dark, like he was indeliberately used to see if the Rohirrim have really learned their lesson!