LotR -- Book 5 - Chapter 01 - Minas Tirith - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

davem · 06-12-2005, 03:15 PM

On this 'insularity' thing. I'm wondering what to make of Faramir's account in Henneth Annun of 'some of us' still having dealings with the Elves - even going at times to Lorien, 'seldom to return'. Faramir does then go on to say that he deems it 'perilous' to have dealings with the Elves, so it seems that even he suffers from the 'insular' thinking of his fellows. I wonder, though. Maybe that has more to do with an awareness that the time of the Elves is over & that seeking them out is a dangerous clinging to the past - but then again he himself is full of yearning for what Gondor had been & the desire to see it return to that high state.

Faramir seems at one & the same time drawn to the past & knowing that he cannot go back. Like Frodo he seems to have realised that 'There is no real going back.'

Its interesting that Tolkien chooses to bring Faramir back into the reader's consciousness through Beregond's reference to him. Its as though he realised Faramir's vital symbolic importance. Faramir shapes our view of what Gondor is. Tolkien can only present us with such flawed Gondorians because of Faramir & he seems to realise that to let us forget him would be a serious mistake if we are to remain 'on side'.

Lathriel · 06-12-2005, 07:21 PM

The way Pippin was treated by the Gondorians at the gate always made me wonder at how isolated they were. Throughout the chapter there is a sense of isolation. This isolation came about because of their nearness to Mordor and the spread of evil. Thus the white city knows very little of what is out there. And most of the strange things they hear about they immediatly dismiss as legends or myths. This seems rather ironic to me since their ancestors, the numenoreans, certainly had much more knowledge of the world they lived in then the Gondorians do now.
But throughout LOTR I always had this feeling that nobody except for the elves and Dunadain actually knew who else lived in their world. The hobbits like to stay in the shire, and the people of Bree stay close to Bree. The dwarves stay close to the lonely mountain and the people of Rohan also stay within their borders.
This is probably because of the increasing dangers on the open road but in general nobody seems to care much about what is going on outside of their borders. Untill of course it becomes apparent that Sauron's forces can't be held back by Gondor alone.

Encaitare · 06-12-2005, 08:18 PM

The fact that Ingold asks "what" Pippin is just seems to reflect the uncertainty of the situation, what with war going on, and not being able to trust anyone. Also, it seems to me that people love to categorize other people, and if they can't then they get uneasy. When asked about my heritage or religion, people often ask, "What are you?" I'm tempted to reply, "Well, I'm human, female..."

On a certain level, though, I can understand his reaction, which is near disdainful. Pippin doesn't look like much of a fighter, and Ingold has no way of knowing all that he's been through. He might view Pippin as just being in the way if he can't help fight.

06-12-2005, 03:15 PM	#1
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,240	On this 'insularity' thing. I'm wondering what to make of Faramir's account in Henneth Annun of 'some of us' still having dealings with the Elves - even going at times to Lorien, 'seldom to return'. Faramir does then go on to say that he deems it 'perilous' to have dealings with the Elves, so it seems that even he suffers from the 'insular' thinking of his fellows. I wonder, though. Maybe that has more to do with an awareness that the time of the Elves is over & that seeking them out is a dangerous clinging to the past - but then again he himself is full of yearning for what Gondor had been & the desire to see it return to that high state. Faramir seems at one & the same time drawn to the past & knowing that he cannot go back. Like Frodo he seems to have realised that 'There is no real going back.' Its interesting that Tolkien chooses to bring Faramir back into the reader's consciousness through Beregond's reference to him. Its as though he realised Faramir's vital symbolic importance. Faramir shapes our view of what Gondor is. Tolkien can only present us with such flawed Gondorians because of Faramir & he seems to realise that to let us forget him would be a serious mistake if we are to remain 'on side'. __________________ “Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects."

06-12-2005, 07:21 PM	#2
Lathriel Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wandering through Middle-Earth (Sadly in Alberta and not ME) Posts: 612	The way Pippin was treated by the Gondorians at the gate always made me wonder at how isolated they were. Throughout the chapter there is a sense of isolation. This isolation came about because of their nearness to Mordor and the spread of evil. Thus the white city knows very little of what is out there. And most of the strange things they hear about they immediatly dismiss as legends or myths. This seems rather ironic to me since their ancestors, the numenoreans, certainly had much more knowledge of the world they lived in then the Gondorians do now. But throughout LOTR I always had this feeling that nobody except for the elves and Dunadain actually knew who else lived in their world. The hobbits like to stay in the shire, and the people of Bree stay close to Bree. The dwarves stay close to the lonely mountain and the people of Rohan also stay within their borders. This is probably because of the increasing dangers on the open road but in general nobody seems to care much about what is going on outside of their borders. Untill of course it becomes apparent that Sauron's forces can't be held back by Gondor alone. __________________ Back again

06-12-2005, 08:18 PM	#3
Encaitare Bittersweet Symphony Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: On the jolly starship Enterprise Posts: 1,814	The fact that Ingold asks "what" Pippin is just seems to reflect the uncertainty of the situation, what with war going on, and not being able to trust anyone. Also, it seems to me that people love to categorize other people, and if they can't then they get uneasy. When asked about my heritage or religion, people often ask, "What are you?" I'm tempted to reply, "Well, I'm human, female..." On a certain level, though, I can understand his reaction, which is near disdainful. Pippin doesn't look like much of a fighter, and Ingold has no way of knowing all that he's been through. He might view Pippin as just being in the way if he can't help fight.