What breaks the enchantment?

[davem]

Originally Posted by Bb

There seems to be, too, details which are less relevant to Gandalf's Orthanc experience, such as the Gaffer's opinion of the new owners of Bag End, and the full dialogue between Gandalf and Butterbur at the Pony. I think they belong more to a narrator who loves his story and characters than to the wizard per se who must speak of his experience.

Shippey comments on this speech of Gandalf, & maybe it would be useful to quote from him:

It is Gandalf's long monolgue, however, which shows most variety in its use of 'imapcted speakers', the direct speech of others quoted by Gandalf. Without that variety the immense amount of necessary plot-detail conveyed by the monologue would run flat. Several of Gandalf's (seven) 'impacted speakers' create, like Boromir, or Sauron's messenger, a sense of the ominous, more or less concealed. Perhaps the least significant, in terms of plot, is Gaffer Gamgee, whose job is only to tell Gandalf that Frodo & the others have left. He makes too much of this, as Gandalf says, 'Many words & few to the point', & Gandalf stresses what it is he actually says:

'I can't abide changes, not at my time of life, & least of all changes for the worst.' Changes for the worst.' he repeated many times...

People draw information not only from what is said, but from how it is said. The continuous variations of language within this complex chapter tell us almost subliminally how reliable characters are, how old they are, how self-assured they are, how mistaken they are, what kind of person they are. All thisx is as vital as the direct information conveyed, not least, as has been said, to prevent the whole chapter from degenerating into the minutes of a committee meeting. (Author of the Century)

If we read Gandalf's description of Orthanc (this one, I think, is the one LMP is referring to :

'However, I wrote a message to Frodo, and trusted to my friend the innkeeper to send it to him. I rode away at dawn; and I came at long last to the dwelling of Saruman. That is far south in Isengard, in the end of the Misty Mountains, not far from the Gap of Rohan. And Boromir will tell you that that is a great open vale that lies between the Misty Mountains and the northmost foothills of Ered Nimrais, the White Mountains of his home. But Isengard is a circle of sheer rocks that enclose a valley as with a wall, and in the midst of that valley is a tower of stone called Orthanc. It was not made by Saruman, but by the Men of Numenor long ago; and it is very tall and has many secrets; yet it looks not to be a work of craft. It cannot be reached save by passing the circle of Isengard; and in that circle there is only one gate.

we see that Gandalf is actually giving important information to the other Council members, most of whom will have little or no knowlege of Saruman. He is telling them why Saruman is a threat - he lives in an impregnable fortress, which he himself did not make. It (& by extension Saruman himself) 'has many secrets'. He is also explaining why he himself found it so difficult to escape from there. Saruman is Orthanc in a very real sense. A detailed description of Orthanc actually tells us a great deal about Saruman himself.

Also, taking the risk of being accused of importing primary world baggage into Middle earth we know that in oral cultures - which Middle earth still is to a great extent - people tended to have a greater capacity to visualise what was described to them if they were given enough information (Peig Sayers, the great Irish storyteller, tells us that the way she managed to remember long stories after only a single hearing was that when she heard the stories she would look at a blank wall & 'see' what was being described. In other words, such descriptions would serve not just as a source of information, but also help too create an image for the listeners).

Gandalf, it seems to me, is giving a lot of important information to an audience who are largely ignorant of what is happening in their world. He does this through the words of a number of different characters, & through descriptions of place. He has a lot to pass on, & he has to make sure his audience take it in. The most effective way to do this (& this applies equally to the reader) is to relate his information in the form of a story. In this sense he does take on the role of 'impartial narrator', but I'd argue that this is entirely right & understandable. Put yourself in the place of one of the Council members & think how much Gandalf is telling you. The kind of mental pictures he is creating would be an invaluable aid in holding all that he's telling you in mind.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

I would guess also that at some level Tolkien was aware that this account created a bit of a problem. After all, why give Gandalf his apologetic excuse for its length unless he (Tolkien) were aware that it did not sound enough like Gandalf?

Bêthberry, you may credit me with more than I deserve. My sense that Gandalf's words sound more like the narrator in describing Orthanc, has to do with having learned much about the writing craft in the last five or so years. The above quote represents the kind of thing I've learned: when a writer uses a character to apologize for something that is not necessarily character related, it is often the writer apologizing to the reader because said writer knows s/he has not done as well as s/he could.

In the interest of getting really, really specific and entirely breaking the enchantment for those who care to read.....

'However, I wrote a message to Frodo, and trusted to my friend the innkeeper to send it to him. I rode away at dawn; and I came at long last to the dwelling of Saruman. That is far south in Isengard, in the end of the Misty Mountains, not far from the Gap of Rohan. And Boromir will tell you that that is a great open vale that lies between the Misty Mountains and the northmost foothills of Ered Nimrais, the White Mountains of his home.

The above part works for me, because Gandalf is speaking to the audience sitting in Elrond's circle.

But Isengard is a circle of sheer rocks that enclose a valley as with a wall, and in the midst of that valley is a tower of stone called Orthanc. It was not made by Saruman, but by the Men of Numenor long ago; and it is very tall and has many secrets; yet it looks not to be a work of craft. It cannot be reached save by passing the circle of Isengard; and in that circle there is only one gate.

This second section is what broke the enchantment for me. Whereas in the first, Gandalf is naming others around the council, here in the second he does not .... and that seems to me to be because it is the narrator's voice that has taken over, giving the reader important information that the writer couldn't think of a better (more timely, more suspenseful) way to convey. It may well be that it is important information for the council members to learn from Gandalf, but that does not mitigate the fact that the voice is the narrator's rather than Gandalf's here.

And now to commit heresy:

'However, I wrote a message to Frodo, and trusted to my friend the innkeeper to send it to him. I rode away at dawn; and I came at long last to the dwelling of Saruman. That is far south in Isengard, in the end of the Misty Mountains, not far from the Gap of Rohan. And Boromir will tell you that that is a great open vale that lies between the Misty Mountains and the northmost foothills of Ered Nimrais, the White Mountains of his home. But Isengard is a circle of sheer rocks that enclose a valley as with a wall, and in the midst of that valley is a tower of stone called Orthanc. It was not made by Saruman, but by the Men of Numenor long ago; and it is very tall and has many secrets; yet it looks not to be a work of craft. I came to Orthanc, passing through the lone gate in the circle of Isengard, for it cannot be reached any other way.'

So you see, it's possible to improve upon Tolkien. No, I don't really think I've improved upon him. But my alteration does show one way that Gandalf's voice could have provided the information instead of the intrusive narrator. I'm sure someone must come to Tolkien's defense and show how my alteration actually ruins the effect. I eagerly await it.