LotR -- Book 4 - Chapter 08 - The Stairs of Cirith Ungol

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Encaitare

I don't know about anyone else, but sometimes I find the super-evil, black-clad villain to get very old. A "color reversal" I liked was in Terry Goodkind's Wizard's First Rule, in which the chief baddie -- not a nice guy at all -- lived in a beautiful palace in a pleasant land, was very handsome, and happened to fancy wearing white robes.

I've got some thoughts! There are two types of 'bad guys'. We have the outright bad guy like Sauron or Morgoth, who is not only evil in character but is also unattractive in appearance; usually their acts of evil are not shown to ultimately bring them anything we would class as a benefit, their lands are not pleasant, their castles are not glamorous, and they don't have hordes of admirers. This is the type of evil character who we are immediately repelled by, and hence we fall in on the 'side' of the good charachters

Then we get the handsome bad guy. This is more of a Miltonic or possibly Byronic evil character. Such figures are usually attractive, glamorous, seductive; they have gained benefits from being bad which attract us to them as we want something of what they have. Dracula is probably the best example, as he exerts a powerful attraction on people yet is thoroughly evil. As an aside, the modern vampire stories develop this by showing vampires who are very attractive and make people want to 'be like them' and also have eternal life, whereas we see that secretly such vampires do not always enjoy their immortality.

Originally Posted by Encaitare

In Tolkien's works, evil is associated with darkness -- but then, if it were not for darkness, we could not see the stars. This may just be a random musing, but I just wondered whether there is a difference in Tolkien between blackness and darkness.

I reckon there must be something in davem's idea of unlight, i.e. the absence of Light. Darkness itself is not evil, as it is always counterbalanced with Light - even if this Light is just the light of the stars. But Darkness (with a capital D) is different, as it is the absence of Light. I'm thinking of how Ungoliant sucked the Light from the trees; it was as though her evil nature had a complete absence of Light and that her Darkness would totally negate and consume Light. A bit like a Black Hole!

Originally Posted by Encaitare

The Moriquendi never beheld the Two Trees, which might be considered a sorrow to the Calaquendi. Yet these "Dark Elves" are not evil.

No, they are indeed not evil, but in a way, they are viewed as 'fallen'. All the Elves are expected to eventually go to Valinor. On death if the Fea refuses to go to the Halls of Mandos, then it is considered to be very wrong, something 'suspect'. Maybe the Calaquendi are so sorrowful because they know that the loss of their cousins will also hurt them on a deeper level, that as Elves, their nature depends upon them going to Valinor. So it's definitely not that they are evil, but they are not blessed either.

[Guinevere]

Just some random, belated thoughts...

- I wonder who originally made that hidden path with all those stairs, and to what purpose? There is a main road to the pass , and in the time of Minas Ithil I guess people used that one.

Frodo raised his head. Despair had not left him, but the weakness had passed. He even smiled grimly, feeling now as clearly as a moment before he had felt the opposite, that what he had to do, he had to do, if he could, and that whether Faramir or Aragorn or Elrond or Galadriel or Gandalf or anyone else ever knew about it was beside the purpose.

I think one of the main topics of the books is going on and doing one's duty because it's the right thing to do, even though there may be no hope left whatsoever.

I love Frodo's and Sam's conversation about being in a greater story.

And the moment where Gollum almost repents is really tragic! For those who don't have Tolkien's letters, here is what he wrote about this incident ( in letter #246)

If he (Sam) had understood better what was going on between Frodo and Gollum, things might have turned out differently in the end. For me perhaps the most tragic moment in the Tale comes when Sam fails to note the complete change in Gollum's tone and aspect. "Nothing, nothing" said Gollum softly. "Nice master!" His repentance is blighted and all Frodo's pitiy is (in a sense) wasted. Shelob's lair became inevitable.
This is due of course to the "logic of the story". Sam could hardly have acted differently. (he did reach the point of pity at last, but for the good of Gollum too late.) If he had, what could then have happened? The course of the entry into Mordor and the struggle to reach Mount Doom would have been different, and so would the ending. The interest would have shifted to Gollum, I think, and the battle that would have gone on between his repentance and his new love on one side and the Ring. Though the love would have been strengthened daily it could not have wrested the mastery from the Ring. I think that in some queer twisted and pitiable way Gollum would have tried (not maybe with conscious design) to satisfy both. Certainly at some point not long before the end he would have stolen the Ring or taken it by violence (as he does in the actual Tale) . But "possession" satisfied, I think he would then have sacrificed himself for Frodo's sake and have voluntarily cast himself into the fiery abyss.

Fascinating alternative by the Master himself!

[Encaitare]

But "possession" satisfied, I think he would then have sacrificed himself for Frodo's sake and have voluntarily cast himself into the fiery abyss.

Wow... what a fascinating possibility that is!

[Lathriel]

There have been times when I became tired of certain authors because they made their villains too obvious. That is why I do like the Saruman part of LOTR.

As for the Gollum thing. That is interesting

[Formendacil]

Long, winding journey for me rereading what is a fairly short chapter. It's main claims to fame are the book's only real image of Minas Morgul, the conversation of Frodo and Sam about being in a Story, and the tragic moment of Sméagol's quavering almost-redemption.

Regarding that last point, I think the brevity of its window and the ease of its destruction are what make it so poignant. Gollum is not a generally sympathetic character. Granting that we see him largely through Sam's biased eyes, nothing about him that we hear from Gandalf, Aragorn, Faramir, or the Rangers of Ithilien suggest that he is at all pleasant to be around. He's profoundly broken, but mostly due to his own wicked doings, and anyone rereading the story knows exactly how treacherous any of his veiled, dubious mutterings to this point truly are.

And yet, for one fleeting moment, we believe he can be saved--and it is a tragedy of timing that Sam wakes as he does when he does. You can call this moment literary skill on Tolkien's part--I think it is--but you can also call it a window into thoughts on sin and redemption. Not that I see this a sort of allegory; it is more that I am trying to say that this sense that even the most wretched can be saved from their fallen state is a supremely Christian idea--though the fragility of that possibility here is perhaps wryly cynical.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

And yet, for one fleeting moment, we believe he can be saved--and it is a tragedy of timing that Sam wakes as he does when he does. You can call this moment literary skill on Tolkien's part--I think it is--but you can also call it a window into thoughts on sin and redemption. Not that I see this a sort of allegory; it is more that I am trying to say that this sense that even the most wretched can be saved from their fallen state is a supremely Christian idea--though the fragility of that possibility here is perhaps wryly cynical.

It's a consistent message, to be sure.

Both the Prime Evil, Melkor, and his lieutenant were offered the chance to repent. Saruman too. Though redemption never happened for them or Gollum, it's the opportunity that matters. A truly lost cause would not even be afforded the possibility, leaving doubt that anyone is ever "lost" if thy do not choose it.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Long, winding journey for me rereading what is a fairly short chapter. It's main claims to fame are the book's only real image of Minas Morgul, the conversation of Frodo and Sam about being in a Story, and the tragic moment of Sméagol's quavering almost-redemption.

I would also add a slightly more humble but to me an important piece: the first mention of the phial of Galadriel since the departure from Lorien (something previously discussed here) and its first use.

Here are the words Galadriel used to describe it:

" 'In this phial,' she said,`is caught the light of Eärendil's star, set amid the waters of my fountain. It will shine still brighter when night is about you. May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out. Remember Galadriel and her Mirror!' "

Of course it comes useful later on as a physical light, but I like to think that it's more than that. After all Earendil's star is the bringer of hope, not just a celestial flashlight, and Galadriel deals with the metaphysical world too and not just with light refraction.

Interestingly the phial gives neither form of aid at Sammath Naur, where Orodruin's light and Sauron's will overpower any other source. And after the victory, Arwen's pendant in some ways ousts the phial as a Ring-replacing artifact. Both of these items have an interesting role, and possibly this discussion might merit a thread of its own.