Pippin's Song - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Kath · 05-27-2005, 01:32 PM

Quote:

don’t you think Pippin’s mood would have affected how it sounded?

That is a good point but we have never really seen any indication that Pippin is a master songwriter, he sings a lot but only well known songs. And mood might make it slower and sadder but still not change the underlying meaning or feeling of the song.

Mithalwen · 05-27-2005, 01:41 PM

But the same words can take on even opposite meanings depending on context.

Think about the phrase "I'm coming to get you"... a death threat or a promise of rescue.

Even a familiar song - perhaps a especially an old song could take a different significance in a new environment.

Kath · 05-27-2005, 01:49 PM

Yes but its more the tune that confuses me. Any words can be ambiguous but that is why you have a tune to combat that confusion.

davem · 05-27-2005, 02:06 PM

I wonder if Tolkien had a specific tune in mind for this song. On the recordings he made in the fifties he sang Sam's Troll Song to the tune of 'A fox went out on a winter's night'.

As an aside, it took me a while to realise that Bilbo's song of Earendel fits the tune of 'I am the very model of a modern major general' (from Pirates of Penzance) perfectly.

Mithalwen · 05-28-2005, 12:22 PM

But there may be more than one tune to many songs. And they don't always fit the mood. It may be a question of age and taste but I don't think that say, all of the Donald Swann settings really fit the Tolkien poems he sets - I invariably prefer the Stephen Oliver settings which seems to have given more thought to context. Or maybe it is the interpretation too that matters - think of the difference between Judy Garlands "over the rainbow" and Eva Cassidy's - or more painfully Will Young's "Light my Fire" compared to Jim Morrisson's. William Elvin just sounds too robust and jolly throughout - yet Swann's faltering rendition of "Bilbo's Last Song" I find very moving.

Similarly I found Billy Boyd's song very moving while I had never been particularly struck by that poem.... so was it the tune or the interpretation. Hmm.....

Oh Davem .. I am glad I never cared much for Bilbo's song of Earendil (althought I am rather fond of G&S) or you would have ruined it for me ..... Emily Dickinson's " A cetain slant of light ..." was one of my all time favourite poems until someone told me that most of Emily Dickinson can be sung to "The yellow rose of texas" ... experiment at your peril..... it has blighted my life..

http://www.niehs.nih.gov/kids/lyrics/yellowrose.htm

http://eir.library.utoronto.ca/rpo/d.../poem2636.html

Guinevere · 05-28-2005, 03:27 PM

Quote:

But the same words can take on even opposite meanings depending on context.

The verses become only ambiguous or even change in meaning because in the movie the lines that refer to coming home:

Then world behind and home ahead,
We'll wander back to home and bed.
and
Fire and lamp, and meat and bread,
And then to bed! And then to bed!

are left out!

I didn't recognize where the words of Pippin's song came from for a long time, because the mood is so very different from the original walking song.

Kath · 05-28-2005, 03:44 PM

Guinevere you make a great point with the word changing thing, except that it was kinda my original question. Were the words changed to change the tone of the song? Seeing the answers here I think the answer now is yes.

Guinevere · 06-01-2005, 07:42 AM

Quote:

Were the words changed to change the tone of the song?

I think so too. They were looking for something for Pippin to sing before Denethor . In this situation something cheerful wouldn't have been fitting.

05-27-2005, 01:41 PM	#2
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,461	But the same words can take on even opposite meanings depending on context. Think about the phrase "I'm coming to get you"... a death threat or a promise of rescue. Even a familiar song - perhaps a especially an old song could take a different significance in a new environment. __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

05-27-2005, 01:49 PM	#3
Kath Everlasting Whiteness Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Perusing the laminated book of dreams Posts: 4,533	Yes but its more the tune that confuses me. Any words can be ambiguous but that is why you have a tune to combat that confusion. __________________ “If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world.”

05-27-2005, 02:06 PM	#4
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,240	I wonder if Tolkien had a specific tune in mind for this song. On the recordings he made in the fifties he sang Sam's Troll Song to the tune of 'A fox went out on a winter's night'. As an aside, it took me a while to realise that Bilbo's song of Earendel fits the tune of 'I am the very model of a modern major general' (from Pirates of Penzance) perfectly. __________________ “Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects."

05-28-2005, 12:22 PM	#5
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,461	But there may be more than one tune to many songs. And they don't always fit the mood. It may be a question of age and taste but I don't think that say, all of the Donald Swann settings really fit the Tolkien poems he sets - I invariably prefer the Stephen Oliver settings which seems to have given more thought to context. Or maybe it is the interpretation too that matters - think of the difference between Judy Garlands "over the rainbow" and Eva Cassidy's - or more painfully Will Young's "Light my Fire" compared to Jim Morrisson's. William Elvin just sounds too robust and jolly throughout - yet Swann's faltering rendition of "Bilbo's Last Song" I find very moving. Similarly I found Billy Boyd's song very moving while I had never been particularly struck by that poem.... so was it the tune or the interpretation. Hmm..... Oh Davem .. I am glad I never cared much for Bilbo's song of Earendil (althought I am rather fond of G&S) or you would have ruined it for me ..... Emily Dickinson's " A cetain slant of light ..." was one of my all time favourite poems until someone told me that most of Emily Dickinson can be sung to "The yellow rose of texas" ... experiment at your peril..... it has blighted my life.. http://www.niehs.nih.gov/kids/lyrics/yellowrose.htm http://eir.library.utoronto.ca/rpo/d.../poem2636.html __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

05-28-2005, 03:44 PM	#7
Kath Everlasting Whiteness Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Perusing the laminated book of dreams Posts: 4,533	Guinevere you make a great point with the word changing thing, except that it was kinda my original question. Were the words changed to change the tone of the song? Seeing the answers here I think the answer now is yes. __________________ “If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world.”