bombadils influence on our reading of the narrative - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

littlemanpoet · 05-27-2005, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Tom (as well as Farmer Maggot) are important in getting the hobbits to grow up.

Yes B-88. I've been reading FotR for the last little while and was reminded of this thread. I was struck by the fact that from Shadows of the Past through to Rivendell, one of the primary themes of FotR is as a "coming of age" story about Frodo. I don't include the other hobbits at this point. Sam is pretty much already what he ever would be, except that he gets deepened by his experiences. Merry seems reasonably mature also, and is deepened by his experiences. Pippin is the most immature and self-centered of the bunch, but his "coming of age" story really begins with his capture by the orcs, and his service under Denethor. So I see this as Frodo's coming of age story, and he is under the tutelage of first Gandalf, then Farmer Maggot (briefly), then Tom Bombadil (crucially), and finally Strider from Bree to Rivendell.

So I guess what I have hit upon is that I no longer see the Tom Bombadil piece of this story as an unnecessary aside. Frodo's experience with Tom, with Goldberry, and in the barrow, are all very important for his growing up . . .very much like Bilbo's experience when Gandalf was away in The Hobbit.

Mithalwen · 05-27-2005, 11:54 AM

I am afraid I loathe Tom Bombadil so much that I invariably skip those characters regarding them as a detour into a completely different book if not world., feel their inclusion as Tolkien's biggest error (second only to wishing he had rewritten the early chapters to eliminate the Hobbit style), and think that Bomabadils songs would make a Vogon queasy. So having rendered him a non-person he has zero influence....

Lalwendë · 05-27-2005, 12:42 PM

To me the chapters with Tom Bombadil, from the Old Forest to the Barrow Downs, are very important to the story. Here we have the Hobbits making the transition from the 'safe' and almost-but-not-quite familiar world of The Shire to the world of Men. Even the Elves they meet in The Shire have an ethereal, elegiac quality; they are gentle and are leaving the concerns of Middle Earth behind, whereas the other Elves we will go on to meet are much more solid, even slightly dangerous.

The Hobbits, unlike the band of Elves, are in effect joining Middle Earth. The episodes in these chapters serve to form a bridge between The Shire and the safety there and the world of Men which is full of tangible danger. In the story we are about to jump from one type of danger to another. All the Hobbits must do in The Shire is keep hidden from the Ringwraiths and keep moving. Once they leave The Shire they will meet a myriad of dangers which must be faced up to.

These chapters, to me, also serve to provide an opportunity for Tolkien to deepen and develop the tale. In a story of a journey it would be all too easy to simply allow the narrative impulse to sweep the characters and readers on ahead, but reflective points, such as the interlude at Tom's house are necessary to allow development of some of the concepts.

And another reason strikes me as to why these chapters are important. They are foreshadowings of other chapters/events to come. The Old Forest is a remnant of Fangorn and the anger of Old Man Willow is later seen multiplied in the Huorns. The mysterious atmosphere of Tom and Goldberry's house mirrors that of Galadriel's realm (and it might be interesting to compare these two women), and memories of the Barrow Wight's actions serve to underline how perilous the Paths of the Dead are.

My final reason as to why I think the chapters are important is purely personal, and that's that I like the mystical, magical atmosphere they impart. These chapters are full of pagan or old religion atmosphere, echoes of folklore; they conjour up an image of an ancient England and I love the archaeological detail. I realise Tom's poems aren't to everyone's taste, as they are a bit mad, but I find them quite funny.

Mithalwen · 05-27-2005, 01:01 PM

Interesting, but not convinced... I love the Lord of the Rings dearly but I find the Bomabadil episode a ludicrous embarassment .... like the family member you avoid all year and dread having to spend so much time with at Christmas .... but then I don't go much for magic and old religion either (apart form a fondness for the Cerne Giant ...

) .....

Essex · 05-27-2005, 01:06 PM

I also love the old forest / bombadil chapters, and have already given my point on this thread a few months back. But I can't let Boromir's point lie

Quote:

Where they are different is Treebeard does something to help out in the War, Bombadil doesn't.

Bombadil indirectly saves Middle-earth. I've said this about a million times already so sorry if you've already read this dirge.....

Hobbits get caught by Wight

Bombail saves the hobbits (saves middle-earth for the first time - the wights had been woken up by the Witch King's presence. what would happen when the wight got the Ring? I'll leave the math to you....)

Bombadil gives Merry his Sword from the barrow

Merry helps slay the Witch King with the sword (bombadil has indirectly possible saved Minas Tirith as an aside)

No death of Witch King - no argument between the two Orc trackers who would have then undoubtedly found Frodo and Sam. Capture of Frodo, capture of Ring, end of Middle-earth as we know it.

Well done Bombadil - You helped save Middle-earth.....

Kath · 05-27-2005, 02:21 PM

My word Essex I had never thought of Bombadil as being such an important character before!

Personally I like him and his songs, but I always saw him as an amusing diversion, though one that introduced the dangerous element of the world beyond the Shire so it wouldn't be such a shock when we met up with the Black Riders at Bree.

Lalwendë · 05-27-2005, 03:43 PM

Quote:

but then I don't go much for magic and old religion either (apart form a fondness for the Cerne Giant ...

Perhaps the purpose of the Cerne Giant was to make you think in exactly that way...

Essex makes a good point about Merry's sword coming from the Barrow. I wonder if Tolkien had this in mind all along, or if it was a happy coincidence arising from the story?

cookieman · 05-27-2005, 04:47 PM

I believe Tom is connected somehow to Aule. Aule was the lord over all substances of which Arda is made. He was a smith. Aule created the dwarves, and Tom bears some resemblance to a dwarf. Perhaps Tom is one of the Maiar, similar to Gandalf, but with different powers and dwells in ME for a different purpose. He may have taken a form similar to dwarves out of respect for Aule. Gandalf is a "steward". Maybe Tom is also a steward in a sense. Whereas Gandalf is more concerned with men and elves, maybe Tom is more interested in trees and the earth itself. (I don't know why he would have boundaries though.) Sauron would not be able to defeat Aule, but he would be able to strive with and possibly defeat another Maiar. Goldberry, also is called the river daughter, she may aslo be another of the Maiar. I can see many possible explanations for this line of thought.

Mithalwen · 05-28-2005, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Perhaps the purpose of the Cerne Giant was to make you think in exactly that way...

? I have no idea what you mean... seriously ....... I just remember as a young child asking my parents one of those questions and not getting an answer...

As for Mr Bombadil ... if he were Aule ... surely he could have done something about the ring?

05-27-2005, 11:54 AM	#2
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,461	I am afraid I loathe Tom Bombadil so much that I invariably skip those characters regarding them as a detour into a completely different book if not world., feel their inclusion as Tolkien's biggest error (second only to wishing he had rewritten the early chapters to eliminate the Hobbit style), and think that Bomabadils songs would make a Vogon queasy. So having rendered him a non-person he has zero influence.... __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

05-27-2005, 12:42 PM	#3
Lalwendë A Mere Boggart Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: under the bed Posts: 4,737	To me the chapters with Tom Bombadil, from the Old Forest to the Barrow Downs, are very important to the story. Here we have the Hobbits making the transition from the 'safe' and almost-but-not-quite familiar world of The Shire to the world of Men. Even the Elves they meet in The Shire have an ethereal, elegiac quality; they are gentle and are leaving the concerns of Middle Earth behind, whereas the other Elves we will go on to meet are much more solid, even slightly dangerous. The Hobbits, unlike the band of Elves, are in effect joining Middle Earth. The episodes in these chapters serve to form a bridge between The Shire and the safety there and the world of Men which is full of tangible danger. In the story we are about to jump from one type of danger to another. All the Hobbits must do in The Shire is keep hidden from the Ringwraiths and keep moving. Once they leave The Shire they will meet a myriad of dangers which must be faced up to. These chapters, to me, also serve to provide an opportunity for Tolkien to deepen and develop the tale. In a story of a journey it would be all too easy to simply allow the narrative impulse to sweep the characters and readers on ahead, but reflective points, such as the interlude at Tom's house are necessary to allow development of some of the concepts. And another reason strikes me as to why these chapters are important. They are foreshadowings of other chapters/events to come. The Old Forest is a remnant of Fangorn and the anger of Old Man Willow is later seen multiplied in the Huorns. The mysterious atmosphere of Tom and Goldberry's house mirrors that of Galadriel's realm (and it might be interesting to compare these two women), and memories of the Barrow Wight's actions serve to underline how perilous the Paths of the Dead are. My final reason as to why I think the chapters are important is purely personal, and that's that I like the mystical, magical atmosphere they impart. These chapters are full of pagan or old religion atmosphere, echoes of folklore; they conjour up an image of an ancient England and I love the archaeological detail. I realise Tom's poems aren't to everyone's taste, as they are a bit mad, but I find them quite funny. __________________ Gordon's alive!

05-27-2005, 01:01 PM	#4
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,461	Interesting, but not convinced... I love the Lord of the Rings dearly but I find the Bomabadil episode a ludicrous embarassment .... like the family member you avoid all year and dread having to spend so much time with at Christmas .... but then I don't go much for magic and old religion either (apart form a fondness for the Cerne Giant ... ) ..... __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

05-27-2005, 02:21 PM	#6
Kath Everlasting Whiteness Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Perusing the laminated book of dreams Posts: 4,533	My word Essex I had never thought of Bombadil as being such an important character before! Personally I like him and his songs, but I always saw him as an amusing diversion, though one that introduced the dangerous element of the world beyond the Shire so it wouldn't be such a shock when we met up with the Black Riders at Bree. __________________ “If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world.”

05-27-2005, 04:47 PM	#8
cookieman Pile O'Bones Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 15	I believe Tom is connected somehow to Aule. Aule was the lord over all substances of which Arda is made. He was a smith. Aule created the dwarves, and Tom bears some resemblance to a dwarf. Perhaps Tom is one of the Maiar, similar to Gandalf, but with different powers and dwells in ME for a different purpose. He may have taken a form similar to dwarves out of respect for Aule. Gandalf is a "steward". Maybe Tom is also a steward in a sense. Whereas Gandalf is more concerned with men and elves, maybe Tom is more interested in trees and the earth itself. (I don't know why he would have boundaries though.) Sauron would not be able to defeat Aule, but he would be able to strive with and possibly defeat another Maiar. Goldberry, also is called the river daughter, she may aslo be another of the Maiar. I can see many possible explanations for this line of thought.