Death portrayal

[Kath]

Well Ar-Pharazon I'd say that was a pretty good second post! But I wanted to comment on your final point.

did PJ make the mistake of using Gandalf to describe mortal death as the immortal's description of the passing into Valinor?

I think that Gandalf's description was all he knew, and that his words were more to comfort Pippin at the time than actually contain genuine knowledge of what was to come.

Although, Gandalf did 'die' after fighting the Balrog in Moria - so maybe he does know what is to come - and is telling Pippin the truth. Because at that point he would not have been passing into Valinor, but dying a (sort of) mortal death.

[Ar-Pharazon]

To rebut

When (movie) Gandalf describes to Aragorn about his fight with the Balrog

He states:

"I threw down my enemy and smote his ruin upon the mountain side. The darkness took me and I strayed out of thought and time, and everyday was a life age on the earth. (He says something else here).... But it was not the end." Did he actually die there? Did he die a mortals death or was he just transformed. From the movie perspective.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Ar-Pharazon

Did he actually die there? Did he die a mortals death or was he just transformed. From the movie perspective.

This maybe assume too much - that the movie writers had a coherent philosophy/theology/metaphysics for their Middle earth in mind. I don't think they did. Rather I think they took a lot of things from the book & inserted them in the script because they liked them, & often wrongly - for instance giving Faramir's dream of the great wave to Eowyn. It makes sense in Faramir's case that he would be haunted by the destruction of Numenor, particularly in light of the fact that the enemy which threatened his people was the one responsible for that destruction. Given to Eowyn the dream loses all significance & simply becomes a nightmare inspired by what Eowyn fears will happen to herself & those she loved. There's a whole level of meaning & symbolism which is lost by doing this.

As to the question about Gandalf: I think those lines were placed in his mouth because its more or less what he says in the book (apart from being appalling English: in the book the Balrog breaks the mountainside 'where he smote it in his ruin'. I wonder how its possible to smite someone's 'ruin' what exactly would you be hitting? Perhaps its connected to the wa that a 'list of allies' can grow thin ) rather than because the writers understood Tolkien's concepts.

[Bêthberry]

Well, I'm going to ask a question which is in part inspired by Ar-Pharazon's post.

Originally Posted by Ar-Pharazon

The perception of death as a gift by Illuvatar to the mortal kinds is lost during the dark years of Melkor/Morgoth's reign in middle earth. Morgoth's creates a fear of death throught the slaying of the three kins and using death as tool to punish them. This twisted the perception of death for them. Men become fearful of death (ie Numenor invades Valinor to take immortality, because their king (my username) fears his impending death).

One of the aspects of the Legendarium's ethos which has always intrigued me is this idea that death is a gift. In pagan belief, death appears to have been represented as a part of the cycle of life, with the goddess of three aspects representing both fertility and death. (I say 'appears' as there are many forms of belief in the pagan, pre-Christian world and likely this is an overgeneralisation.)

Death certainly was not a gift in the Christian ethos which Tolkien believed in; it was/is punishment for the sin of disobedience (if I am understanding this correctly) or was a consequence of learning, of eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. If death is a punishment, then it becomes something to be feared, especially with dark predictions about torment in hell for people who have not behaved according to the required mythology.

What might Tolkien have been trying to suggest in calling death a gift? Is Ar-Pharazon correct in attributing to Melkor this twisted fear of death? Was Tolkien just writing a good story or was there something profound in what he wanted to say about attitudes towards death?

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Bethberry

In pagan belief, death appears to have been represented as a part of the cycle of life, with the goddess of three aspects representing both fertility and death. (I say 'appears' as there are many forms of belief in the pagan, pre-Christian world and likely this is an overgeneralisation.)

This is a nice poser, Bethberry!

I think that this belief has much to do with the idea that the body itself returns to the Earth, returns the nourishment and energy it has gained whilst alive. Much pagan belief also places great importance in the sense of the earth as our Mother, so in effect we are born from her and then return to her. This is possibly why so many barrows and other tombs have small entrances and bear a resemblance to female anatomy; and linked to this are landscape features with names that hint at past reverence as 'mother' figures, such as Mam Tor, or the Paps of Jura.

In Tolkien's world, the spirit of Men leaves Arda at death, which is different to what we know of Pagan or ancient beliefs. Although, I cannot be sure of all the older beliefs, as I have the feeling that the Egyptians may have had something similar in that souls went into the stars?

Anyway, broadly generalising it seems that pagan beliefs see souls as part of the earth while Christian beliefs see souls as apart from the earth. The latter is akin to what happens to Men in/from Arda, but the former is akin to what happens to the Elves.

This has got far away from the original question though, but it would make a great new thread perhaps?

[Knight of Gondor]

I've been told my quote-by-quote responses get tedious, but I'm sorry, there's a lot here I wanted to respond to!

I seem to remember reading somewhere (though I might well be mistaken) that death, or the ability to die, was a gift given to mortal men by Eru.

You refer to the passage in The Silmarillion:

It is one with this gift of freedom that the children of Men dwell only a short space in the world alive, and are not bound to it, and depart soon whither the Elves know not. Whereas the Elves remain until the end of days, and their love of the Earth, and all the world is more single and more poignant therefore, and as the years lengthen ever more sorrowful. For the Elves die not till the world dies, unless they are slain or waste in grief (and to both these seeming deaths they are subject); neither does age subdue their strength, unless one grow weary of ten thousand centuries; and dying they are gathered to the halls of Mandos in Valinor, whence they may in time return. But the sons of Men die indeed, and leave the world; wherefore they are called Guests or Strangers. Death is their fate, the gift if Ilúvatar, which as time wears even the Powers shall envy. But Melkor has cast his shadow upon it, and confounded it with darkness, and brought forth evil out of good and fear out of hope. Yet of old the Valar declared to the Elves in Valinor that Men shall join in the Second Music of the Ainur; whereas Ilúvatar has not revealed what he purposes for the Elves after the World’s end, and Melkor has not discovered it.”

If this is the case then I was just wondering whether anyone thought that PJ actually pulled this idea off quite well in the films?

I think it functions well enough. As I’ve said before (and most people know already), PJ had to walk a fine line between pleasing Tolkien illiterates, and the esteemed, elite, august body of Tolkien fans and/or Tolkien purists. For safety’s sake (money) he leaned towards making it user-friendly to the Tolkien illiterates, and consequently earned the wrath of many Tolkien purists. (Absence of Bombadil, presence of Arwen, etc.)

I think that PJ handled the death sequences pretty well, all things considered. Only those with background knowledge in matters of life and death in Middle-Earth (which are vague enough as it is!) know somewhat of what death truly means in the films.

For example in the charge of the Rohirrim where they all chant "Death!" as they ride to what they know will be death for a good many of them.

Reflective, I believe, of their glorification of battle. I believe Faramir lamented that Rohan had glorified war, whereas Gondor (or at least Faramir) believed it to be a necessary evil to protect that which they love. Éowyn encapsulated the feeling, I think, when she sought death in battle because she could not win renown by winning the love of Aragorn.

On matters of war, I have a little of Rohan and a little of Gondor in me. The site of a thousand hardy warriors caught up in a rapturous pledge of “DEATH!”, essentially saying “glory in death, or glory in victory!” still runs chills down my back. But the world has gotten a front seat to the horrors of war these past few years.

Or when Boromir dies - it is a solemn moment, and sad, but not so much for his death as for his failure in life.

I disagree. Boromir conquered the evil in him, he did not fail in life. Having recently read “Following Gandalf” by Matthew Dickerson (recommended), I am fresh from the study of Boromir’s spiritual victory, even though physically he was defeated. Aragorn seized the opportunity to tell Boromir had conquered, that “few have gained such a victory.” Gandalf expressed his gladness that Boromir “escaped in the end.” Boromir came near the brink of utter disaster, and returned to die an honorable death protecting Merry and Pippin.

Would say that the films never stated that death was a gift, whether explicitly or implicitly. Not that I would fault PJ for that, because you'd have to get into more explanation and exposition, and as he didn't even have an extra moment in ROTK to show the fate of Bill the pony, well...

I really don’t blame PJ for this. People complained about how many supposed endings RotK had, and I suppose from a purely cinematic standpoint, it did have quite a few. (But think of how many BEGINNINGS it had!) But he really didn’t have enough time for a lot of exposition, and even if he tried, how would he fit it in?

LEGOLAS to GIMLI: “From the beginning of the world, Eru gave to Men the gift of death, that they should depart from the world after their life has been filled, and their purpose fulfilled.”

GIMLI: “Well, I’m short, but I can beat you up anyway!”

See? It would be difficult to find a good and fitting place to fit that exposition into, and it would be hard to set it up.

Regarding the Rohirrim chant, what the movies showed (maybe more so than the books) was that the Rohirrim expected to die that morning. It was like they were saying, en masse, "well, the situation's bad, there's no way we can win, we're going to die today anyway so let's go and kill as many of those foul orcs as possible and not worry about anything."

Gamling said to Rohirrim soldiers that “we cannot defeat the forces of Mordor in battle.” Théoden responded “No, we cannot. But we will meet them in battle nonetheless.” Whew, goosebumps! I love the grim determination of that line. I think that was the whole mindset. If a Rohan warrior were faced with fleeing with his family into the hills, or dying a glorious death on the field of battle, Rohan inbreeding would dictate that he choose glorious death.

Théoden once asked “What can Man do against such reckless hate?” Aragorn seems to have the answer. “Ride out with me. Ride out and meet them!” In other words, meet their reckless determination with their own reckless determination. Uruk-hai were laying siege to Helm’s Deep without fear of their fate, and the Rohirrim were putting this into practice in the Pelennor charge. It was portrayed beautifully. Absolutely the most chilling moment (in an awesome, spectacular way!) I have EVER seen in a movie, and perhaps ever will see, depending on what goosebump moments will be in The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe.

Some fear death as Boromir(movie) did, he was dying in shame until Aragorn tells him that he has reclaimed his honour and fought valiantly and Boromir is calm about dying and his only regret was not seeing Aragorn crowned king.

Did he fear death, or was he merely steeped in the grief and regret of his actions minutes earlier?

Basically, he is saying that today is a day of battle and bloodspill, and the sun is rising behind us so to battle we go to deal death or be dealth death. "Ride now, ride now, ride for ruin, and the world's ending. Death, death,..."

And isn’t it interesting to contrast it with Aragorn’s? Going from memory here, but let me try. (I won’t merely flip forward on the DVD to the speech just to get the text right…the scene is too special for that!)

“Men of Gondor, of Rohan, my brothers! I see in your eyes the same fear that would take the heart of me! A day may come when the world of men fails! An hour of wolves, and shattered shields when the world of men comes crashing down! BUT IT IS NOT THIS DAY! THIS DAY WE FIGHT! By all that you hold dear on this good earth; I bid you STAND! – MEN OF THE WEST!!

Such a difference in emotion, in spirit. Aragorn gives them the courage of today, AND the hope of tomorrow, helping them to see the cause for which they fight (all that they hold dear on this good earth) and giving them the determination NOT to let that day be the day when the world of men fails. Whew, there’s those goosebumps. Both battle speeches are simply, without question, the best cinema I have yet seen.

The quote that (Movie) Gandalf uses is the description that (Book) Frodo sees when he is passing into Valinor with the last of the elves. Gandalf is also from Valinor and is thought to be sent by the Valar as the greatest servant of Manwe. Therefore, did PJ make the mistake of using Gandalf to describe mortal death as the immortal's description of the passing into Valinor?

I think his speech, though absolutely beautiful, enhanced by Howard Shore’s heavenly theme, was supposed to be directed towards a covers-all approach to death. Supposedly to give hope to everyone, in the movie, and even in the movie theater. Not sure it worked out too well, because there aren’t too many faiths that hold the promise of heaven for everyone on earth. (Not to get into a faith discussion/debate, I’m just saying)

Death certainly was not a gift in the Christian ethos which Tolkien believed in; it was/is punishment for the sin of disobedience (if I am understanding this correctly) or was a consequence of learning, of eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. If death is a punishment, then it becomes something to be feared, especially with dark predictions about torment in hell for people who have not behaved according to the required mythology.

Interesting point. Do most cultures view death as a good thing? I don’t think so. But death is either the greatest blessing, or the worst of curses, depending on where you stand with God. (Hey, PM me about it sometime, I’ll give you the “good person” quiz!)

[Lathriel]

I think PJ did all the deaths well and was able to keep them from becoming super cheesy.

I agree with the others that there wasn't time to show that Eru thought of death as a gift. Besides it could mean you would have to bring Eru into the script and half of the audience would be thinking, "who is Eru?"

Most of the deaths in LOTR were heroic. Well, I should probably say all of them and I like the way PJ did them.