Death portrayal

[Anguirel]

Well, the Rohirrim's "Death" chant, like so much that was breathtaking and moving in the films, was straight out of the book, of course!

As for your second statement-rather controversial. Boromir was not a failure in life-he was one of the greatest and clearest successes we know. He redeemed himself in battle, conquered his desire and died at peace. That is why his death, although solemn as befits him, and sad for those who love him, is actually a moment of heroism and joy. He has confessed and repented, and merely goes, as you say correctly, to his Father-and not the one that sits on the Steward's chair, at that.

Death is Illuvatar's gift, you're right. And this was portrayed well in general, I agree. Just have a bone to pick with you about poor old Boromir's supposed "failure".

[alatar]

Would say that the films never stated that death was a gift, whether explicitly or implicitly. Not that I would fault PJ for that, because you'd have to get into more explanation and exposition, and as he didn't even have an extra moment in ROTK to show the fate of Bill the pony, well...

Boromir's death was well done in that it did show his passion, his repentence and redemption, his belief in Aragorn and the acting abilities of Sean Bean - I actually liked the character more than when I'd read the same. And he and Aragorn could have a touchy-feely moment without anyone thinking that these two weren't real guys. Cool.

Regarding the Rohirrim chant, what the movies showed (maybe more so than the books) was that the Rohirrim expected to die that morning. It was like they were saying, en masse, "well, the situation's bad, there's no way we can win, we're going to die today anyway so let's go and kill as many of those foul orcs as possible and not worry about anything."

It's something to which I can personally relate (not that I've been in any siege-breaking lately) as, when faced with an upcoming bad situation, I try to imagine the worst possible outcome and prepare for and make peace with that. This removes much stress and worry and allows me either to deal with the situation or even push for a better outcome.

Note that I don't shout "DEATH!" when on a deadline at work - my coworkers are already spooked enough as it is.

[Lalwendë]

For a brief moment I was thinking that maybe he had pulled off this idea when Elrond talks to Arwen of the fate that awaits her if she marries Aragorn, but remembering how the scene was delivered, it's quite the opposite. Film Elrond is very negative about the prospect of death, and while he would indeed have wished to remind his daughter of exactly what she was thinking of getting herself into, if he had been closer to the concept in the books, I think he might have delivered his warnings in a more melancholic fashion, rather than being stern. The Elves in the books seem to view death as more of a gift, a release from the confines of the world to which they are tied. Following the logic of the books, Elrond's warning to her daughter would have been more along the lines of warning her that she would never see any of her kin again if she chose mortality.

Originally Posted by alatar

Regarding the Rohirrim chant, what the movies showed (maybe more so than the books) was that the Rohirrim expected to die that morning. It was like they were saying, en masse, "well, the situation's bad, there's no way we can win, we're going to die today anyway so let's go and kill as many of those foul orcs as possible and not worry about anything."

I gained two different feelings from the portrayal of the Rohirrim charge, firstly that they were acting out of desperation, and secondly that their shouts of 'Death!' were intended to intimidate the enemy. That was a favourite part of the films for me, as it was breathtaking, as Anguirel says, but it also conjoured up a lot of strange emotions! I was impressed and stirred by their bravery, but also moved by their desperation. This was one moment where the 'gift of death' was portrayed ambiguously, but on the whole, I think death was portrayed as not being a gift. Of course, in the books, there are also a lot of mortals who do not consider death to be a gift so the whole issue was possibly too complex to successfully place in the medium of film.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

I gained two different feelings from the portrayal of the Rohirrim charge, firstly that they were acting out of desperation, and secondly that their shouts of 'Death!' were intended to intimidate the enemy. That was a favourite part of the films for me, as it was breathtaking, as Anguirel says, but it also conjoured up a lot of strange emotions! I was impressed and stirred by their bravery, but also moved by their desperation. This was one moment where the 'gift of death' was portrayed ambiguously, but on the whole, I think death was portrayed as not being a gift. Of course, in the books, there are also a lot of mortals who do not consider death to be a gift so the whole issue was possibly too complex to successfully place in the medium of film.

Having watched the scene a few times, I am continually stirred emotionally. Surely the Rohirrim wanted to intimidate the enemy with their shouting, but I felt more of the desperation as stated by Lalwendë. Theoden's speech, Eowyn's words (and facial expressions) to Merry along with the 'mood' music lend to this feeling.

That said, when Theoden faces the mumakil and the Fell Beast, his facial expression is more like "what now?!? Can't you see I'm busy here?" than "oh my gosh!"

[Nimrodel_9]

Though I do not believe PJ made Theoden's death tragic enough, I like that he made it kind of... ah, glorified? I can't think of a word to describe it. It just made death seem like a good thing. It wasn't going to be all that bad because he was going to join his fathers.

[Kath]

I do apologise Anguirel - failure was meant to have been in quotation marks, I just couldn't think of any other way to explain what I meant.

And Lalwendë had a very good point about the Elrond and Arwen scene - I hadn't thought about it before but it does portray death very negatively, though that might be more to do with the relationships between the characters than any real view on the matter.

Theoden's death, I thought, did portray death as being glorified and a gift:

"I go to my fathers, in whose mighty company I shall not now feel ashamed."

That was a beautiful line and seemed to suggest something to look forward to in death, and that the purpose of life was to strive toward an honourable death.

[Eruanna]

I think that the Rohirrim, being warriors, looked upon death as an 'occupational hazard' and that it was right and noble to make a 'good death'. Being the recipients of Eru's Gift meant that they believed that death was not the end, that there was a place for them beyond mortal life. The Elves on the other hand, being tied to the world, did not know what awaited them when Arda was no more.
This was one of the great differences between book and film for me. There was no indication of the different attitudes to death between Men and Elves. Book Elrond, as Lalwendë said is more concerned that Arwen is doomed to be forever sundered from her people, than he is with her eventual mortality. Film Elrond seems to view death as a 'punishment' for living a mortal life.
Perhaps, because I know the 'background' of the books, I did not find Theoden's death tragic. It seemed fitting that he had the chance to die with honour on the battlefield.
On the other hand, whenever I watch TTT, I am always very moved by the deaths of the Elves at Helm's Deep, Haldir in particular. His death seems tragic, after all he is meant to be 'immortal' yet he and the other Elves sacrifice themselves for mortals. I know that this is probably the reaction that PJ hoped to bring about; and with the music, the slow motion camera work and the actor's facial expression as he dies, he succeeds!