Celebrian's Misfortunes

[Nukapei]

Originally Posted by Adel

Wowie, interesting topic here! But as for me, I must personally say that I do not think that Celebrian was raped. For several reasons actually. Tolkien mentioned in his writings that an elf who was raped would immediately leave their bodies and go to the Halls of Mandos...and quite frankly, seeing as Celebrian stuck around after she was captured for another year, I don't think that that is a clear indication that something like that happened to her . . . And upon the detail that she might have been able to survive a little longer because she was raped by an ORC and not an ELF...come on. Do you REALLY think it would be any easier on her to be raped by an Orc? Rape is rape. The deed can be done the same way by an Orc as with an elf. So if Celebrian was really raped by an Orc, she would still die. Her body and spirit has still been defiled, no matter who or what it was defiled by.

Not necessarily. Notice the exact wording:

"Among all these evils there is no record of any among the Elves that took another's spouse by force; for this was wholly against their nature, and one so forced would have rejected bodily life and passed to Mandos. Guile or trickery in this matter was scarcely possible…for the Eldar can read at once in the eyes and voice of another whether they be wed or unwed." (JRRT, Morgoth's Ring, Laws & Customs of the Eldar, footnote 5)

This quote directly relates to inter-Elvish relationships. Period. And, while you say that it is the act that is important, not the person committing it (or, in this case, the species of that person), I am forced to disagree. The identity of the criminal can make a big difference -- think of being raped by a complete stranger, versus a good and trusted friend! The former would be horrible; the latter could leave emotional scars that affect, not only your ability to function as a human being in society, but also your ability to trust!

Perhaps the species of the rapist would affect an Elf in that violent crimes (I agree, rape in this case has absolutely nothing to do with lust and sex, and everything to do with inflicting pain) are expected by Orcs. In Tolkien's (mostly) black-and-white world, Orcs are evil monsters that will do anything they can to inflict horrible pain on others, especially their most hated nemesis, the Eldar. For a fellow Elf to do the same is an even worse betrayal -- Elves aren't supposed to be capable of such.

Originally Posted by Adel

Orcs, to me, really seem (from the point of their naturally descructive nature) like the types who would enjoy more of the wounds that they can see and hear, like blood, screams, ugly wounds, burns, deep cuts, etc. They don't seem like they would go lusting over beautiful women, since they despise elves and "ALL THINGS BEAUTIFUL". So why would they have this big sex-desire thing going on?

Being female myself, I know that I would certaily make all kinds of "satisfying" sounds in a similar situation. And what better way to inflict "wounds" on this beautiful, pure Elvish lady than defiling her, forcing on her deep emotional wounds that make her feel that her own body is a thing dirty and defiled (as rape victims often do)?

Originally Posted by Adel

And I see that we've been kind of playing around with the supposed "gap" that Tolkien left for us by using the word "torment" instead of the word "torture". So... upon seeing this I decided to look up the word in an online dictionary, and guess what the outcome was . . .The word "torment" CAME from the word "torture", and it basically means the same thing. And it is mainly phyiscal stuff, like being poked, and burned, and scratched, etc. Now if he had said the word "assault", then maybe we'd be opened up to a bit more. But it really sounds like he's talking about torture there.

. . .

P.S. I do agree with Lalaith. Elladan and Elrohir weren't necessary so horrified and angry at their mother's capture because she was raped. Think of what YOU would do if you walked into an Orcish torture den and saw someone using hot metals and rusty blades to ravage YOUR mother! I'd never see my brothers again...

I agree with you here, on both parts. The exact wording is irrelivant, as "torment" and "torture" are synonymous. And, whatever the twins saw in that Orc den was horrible enough, no matter the details.

Sorry if I've ranted and raved, and picked apart your post! I just found it so interesting, and had to comment on certain parts of it, that I found especially important.

Oh, no problem about the picking apart there Nukapei! Everyone does it once in a while I think. And you have some valuable points, such as your point on Tolkien not being particularly direct in saying that any cases of rape would cause an elf to leave their bodies...but personally, I don't think that it makes any difference. Rape is rape is rape. It is the same defiling, the same humiliation, and though it may not be by a friend or family, the deed is still the deed. It still happened, it still does the same stuff. That is just what I believe...doesn't really mean it's correct, but that is just my opinion. I don't think it'd be any easier for Celebrian to pull through that, personally...

Nukapei: Being female myself, I know that I would certaily make all kinds of "satisfying" sounds in a similar situation. And what better way to inflict "wounds" on this beautiful, pure Elvish lady than defiling her, forcing on her deep emotional wounds that make her feel that her own body is a thing dirty and defiled (as rape victims often do)?

Because there are other ways of doing things just as bad or worse that would involve much more pleasure for the Orcs. Personally, I don't really think that an Orc would go to that kind of thing, since, as I said, I don't really imagine them having any lust or sex desires. They were never portrayed that way, seeing as they hate all things beautiful and fair, and especially the eldar. I mean, the morgul poisoning would be bad enough through and through. As I stated before, it bothers me how people are always downplaying the roll of the morgul poisoning! Why must we think that something else like RAPE had to happen in order for Celebrian to lose all delight in Middle Earth? Morgul poisoning is AWFUL! Again, look at Frodo! Sorry if I'm getting a little freaky here, I don't mean to be, but it really is something I don't understand. Poisons, gruesome mental images, crude words in the BLACK SPEECH (remember the Elves' reaction to that in the chapter "The Council of Elrond" in FOTR! They were NOT enjoying that!), extreme pain, despair, panic, fear, scars...I mean, you name it she felt it! Daughter of Galadriel or not, that would certainly be enough to get her over to Valinor in my opinion.

Suggestions for toture that Orcs very likely would use: (just for fun mind you. Mwahaha! This is good for all people who are stuck on ways to have their Orcs torture elven prisoners in all fanfiction...)

1. Poison. Absolutely. Probably some of the vilest out there. Poisons that infect your mind, your body, your spirit, your very being itself. Especially when the poisons are from Angmar, or even Mordor! All that black magic just kills you. Remember, Orcs are so good at cooking up stuff that hurts you that even their MEDICINES are painful to take! (and no, I don't mean your daily dose of chest congestion medicine or cough syrup. I mean physical PAIN) Poisons that can sometimes triple the pain that you would normally feel for a poke (working the nerves of the body), poisons that go to your mind and nearly drive you mad with just mental distortion there, poisons that turn your blood black or something to make it burn...I mean, come on. They could've done ANYTHING with the supplies they had!

2. Burns. Oh yeah, bring em' on! You heat up a hot poker, a sword blade, anything that'll heat up really hot and press it against that fair elven skin? Very good, very good. Screams, the smells of burning flesh, severe scars, wounds that take WEEKS to heal...

3. Black speech. Not really a major torture thing here, but that speech is so detestable and dark that elves have a very hard time standing it. It's nearly the opposite of what they speak, and there is no telling what the Orcs are actually saying in the process...

4. Bleeding. Whips, knives, chains, pinchers...anything that'll make the blood come! Orcs love blood, and they know how to draw it from you in the most painful ways with whatever they've got, so be prepared to lose a little of that red stuff if you're ever captured...

5. Physical distortion. Cutting off the tips of the ears, cutting the hair, the fingers, slicing up the face, cutting out the tongue, gouging out the eyes...I don't think I need to go on. But who said that Celebrian didn't come back to Imladris with an eye or a tongue missing? Eeeeek, creepy thought...

6. Hand you over to the Ring Wraiths. Probably the last time they'd see you in recognizable form, but it'd probably be the worst of the worst. After all, between Black Breath and some of the other awful stuff that those Nazgul have...well, I needn't say anymore. This is a drastic step, and they PROBABLY wouldn't normally take it, so go ahead and ignore this one.

All right, I'll stop babbling now. *looks around* Anyone made a run for the chuck-bucket yet? *cringes* I know it's awful. But those are Orcs, ya know...*points finger at Tolkien quickly* His fault! Thanks for your comments Nukapei! Again, I sure hope I haven't offended anyone, and remember, to each his own opinion! Some people may think that it is likely that Celebrian was raped, and others think not. Either way Tolkien never said, so no one can be positive or put their fingers down on anything. It's all a matter of perspective and opinion. Just like some people think that Frodo and Sam were most definately gay. I don't. Simple as that, so I'll stick to my opinion, and those people will stick to theirs. There is plenty of room in this world for both views.

This is Adel, signing out. *tips hat over eyes*

[Nukapei]

Good points, Adel. Yeah, I had forgotten about exactly how bad Morgul poison was. Not nice stuff, that. And I had forgotten about physical distortion, although I shouldn't have -- my fave pic of the silver lady is [this one]. But the Imladris twins show up to find their mother, burn marks all over the place, maybe blind in one eye, head shaved, points cut off her ears, etc. and that'd be enough! Morgul poison aside . . .

Oh, and thanks for tearing mine apart!

[Lush]

So why would they have this big sex-desire thing going on?

For the third time:

Automatically equating rape with an expression of sexual desire is dangerous. Rape is an act of violence. In times of war, rape is a powerful weapon. Tolkien served in a war, I'm sure he was more than aware of this.

This is not an argument for or against the theory of why exactly Celebrain left Middle Earth. This is a reminder that the definition of rape should not be skewed for the sake of argument.

A fair point as well, Lush. But I still say only one thing: I honestly do not believe that Orcs would ever choose to go through that particular line of "war". Men maybe, or some other creature like that, maybe even Uruk-Hai. But not Orcs. It is not in their nature to be that crafty, or do something that has such a small amount of outward results after the damage has been done. For although rape is terrible, yes, I cannot imagine that that would ever be the chosen way that the Orcs would do things.

But yes, many may still (and have every right to) hold to their argument that you believe that is what probably happened...and yet as I said before, I see no reason to pursue this topic, as it still boils down to one thing. To each his own opinion and outlook on the world! Tolkien never gave a direct answer to what happened, so arguing really is pretty worthless isn't it?

P.S. Lol Nukapei! Thanks for being such a great sport! *high fives* Hehe, I know, post-picking-apart-manuevers... And I do know what you mean about that picture of Celebrian. I've always loved that one too...

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Adel

...and yet as I said before, I see no reason to pursue this topic, as it still boils down to one thing. To each his own opinion and outlook on the world! Tolkien never gave a direct answer to what happened, so arguing really is pretty worthless isn't it?
...

That would depend on what one's purpose in arguing is.

Some wish to bring people round to their side. Some might simply enjoy goading others into stronger and stronger statements--either playing devil's advocate or messing with other's ideas-- while still others might simply be interested in exploring the possibilities. For instance, I think Fordim's and SaucepanMan's posts here are interesting as explorations of the writing. They acknowledge the indeterminacy of the text and consider how that is a characteristic of the narrative. Isn't this valid?

Agreeing to disagree is a legitimate conclusion where people remain unconvinced. However, to suggest that a topic should not be pursued because there is no direct answer and because all we have are different opinions strikes me as a bit harsh. Surely discussion is all the more important where we don't have clear cut yes/no situations, where we can come to understand a variety of ways to consider a topic.

Or did you mean there's no point in pursuing the topic further, rather than at all?

Your point about the morgul poisoning is interesting, as it then suggests several purposes for Celebrian in the story. First, she provides her sons with reason and rationale to be always out fighting.(An important consideration when an author has some many characters at hand.) Second, she shows how close and personal has been the pain even in eminent, powerful elves. Third, she offers a way for astute readers to foretell Frodo's final fate. Although Elrond and Rivendell have 'healed' Frodo, we can surmise that there will be lasting effects. There is no magic bullet in LotR, but always a long defeat.

Oh, wait, Celebrian's absence also explains why/allows Arwen to spend so much time with Grandma Galadriel, where she can see Aragorn amidst the beauties of Lothlorien.

There are so many benefits to getting Celebrian out of the way. Hardly "a small amount of outward results", eh? It's the story that assaults her, not the orcs!